Tuesday, July 28, 2015

New York Law School Cockroaches Lease Space to University of Rochester


The Sewer Rats Need More Money: On July 24, 2015, the NaTTTional Juri$TTT published a staff article entitled “NYLS leases space to Urochester.” Look at this opening:

“New York Law School has found use for its open space. The University of Rochester's Simon Business School will move from midtown Manhattan to the Tribeca campus this summer through a co-location agreement between the two professional schools.

New York Law School enrolled reached 1,923 in 2010, soon after it opened a new 235,000-square-foot building. However, since then its numbers have dropped. It had 968 students in 2014-2015. 

The agreement with the University of Rochester is a multi-year arrangement that aims to form an innovative partnership to optimize resources and capitalize on the different schedules and programs of the two institutions.” [Emphasis mine]

Keep in mind that New York Law Sewer is a free-standing toilet, i.e. it does not have a parent university or college to help bail it out during rough stretches. It is extremely impressive that total enrollment has damn nearly been cut in half in the span of about four years. Then again, I’m sure the rodents “planned” to have smaller classes, right?!?!


TTThe TTT AnnouncemenTTT: Back on April 28, 2015, NYL$ issued a press release labeled “University of Rochester’s Simon Business School New York City Center to Co-locate at New York Law School.” Yes, it’s great to see that attorneys are so great at being concise in their language. Here is a partial description:

“The New York City location of the University of Rochester’s Simon Business School will move from midtown Manhattan to the Tribeca campus of New York Law [Sewer] (NYLS) this summer through a unique co-location agreement between the two professional schools, announced Joel Seligman, President of the University of Rochester, and Anthony W. Crowell, President and Dean of New York Law School. 

The agreement between the two professional academic institutions is a creative, multi-year arrangement that aims to form an innovative partnership to optimize resources and capitalize on the different schedules and programs of the two institutions. The Simon Business School offers courses in New York City for 13-month part-time graduate programs designed for working professionals, with M.S. programs in finance, management, and health care management. Simon students attend classes primarily on weekends, while students of NYLS, which offers full- and part-time law degree programs and a two-year J.D. honors program, attend primarily during the week with some weekend options. The business school, which had been located in a commercial office building, will move its NYC administrative offices and academic course offerings to the NYLS facility. Students will be able to take advantage of the classrooms, library, meeting and event spaces, and other amenities of NYLS’s high-tech urban campus, located at 185 West Broadway (at Leonard Street). The move to Lower Manhattan, which is under review by the Middle States Commission on Higher Education, will provide students with a comprehensive and unmatched learning environment, along with direct access to Wall Street, the City’s civic center, and tech corridor. This will be the only co-located law school and business school under one roof in New York City. 

“Lower Manhattan is the epicenter both for business and law in the global economy. New York Law School’s Strategic Plan emphasized a priority of the school to develop strategic alliances that could provide students unprecedented opportunities in business or financial services. The co-location of NYLS and the Simon Business School’s NYC Center creates a unique opportunity to harness the synergies that exist between the two institutions. We look forward to welcoming the business school faculty, staff, and students to our campus and building a culture of community between our schools, while maintaining each individual institution’s identity,” said Anthony Crowell, President and Dean of New York Law School.” [Emphasis mine]

Take a moment to reflect on the following idiotic terms used in the release above: “innovative partnership,” “co-located,” “strategic plan,” “unprecedented opportunities,” “harness the synergies,” and “building a culture of community.” Hell, members of Congre$$ and their professional handlers don’t distort things to such a douche level.

Does anyone with a brain stem think that NYL$ is resorting to this measure, because they simply wanted to help out another “institution of higher learning”?!?! By the way, no one gives a damn if Lower Manhattan is the supposed epicenter for business and law? Decent law firms do not want to hire graduates of third tier schools. 


Ranking: As you can see, US “News” & World Report rates New York Law Sewer as the co-127th greatest, most phenomenal and incredible law school in the entire United States! In fact, it “only” shares this distinct honor with the following SEVEN commodes: Chapman, Cleveland State “University,” Drexel, Quinnipiac, Akron, University of Idaho, and UMKC. Yes, what prestigious company, huh?!?! 


Average Law Student Indebtedness: According to USN&WR, the average law student indebtedness for those members of the NYL$ Class of 2014 who incurred debt for law school was $166,622. Plus, 83% of this unfortunate cohort took on such toxic debt for their TTT law degree. This figure does not include debt from undergrad or other programs, nor does it take accrued interest into account.

Conclusion: In the final analysis, NYL$ seems to be stretched financially. The rodents are located in a pricey-ass section of expensive Manhattan. Yet, the students are enrolled in a firmly entrenched TTT. Biglaw firms will not hire the toilet’s graduates. The total number of students at New York Law Sewer has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY, since the pigs opened a new 235,000 square foot facility in 2010. Since tuition rates at this dung pit are so high, the cost of living is so damn high, and the odds of paying back the student loans are slim, this school apparently needs to make up for lost income. If you are still considering law school, moron, do not even contemplate this trash heap.  You do not need to become financially ruined, in order to help keep this turd afloat.


  1. But guys, hold on a minute. NYLS is one of the only schools in the NY that offer AAMPLE. This program is alternative admissions and is the backdoor for less qualified law school candidates.

    Please do not ding my alma mater. I know student loan debt is kind of pricey, but remember to be a lawyer and part of the higher educated members of society (with a JD) is priceless.

    Renting out space is just a savvy business practice to help out with the overhead. (no crime in this). Think about buying a duplex and living in one side and renting the other unit out. Please support ! See you guys in court !

    1. $225,000 is not "pricey." It is obscene. And over half of the total number of matriculants in 2014-15 paid full freight.

      Hopefully this new lease helps defray the cost to some of the suckers who attend NYLS.

      The only defensible action of this $chool has been how it has cut class sizes. But even then, only 179 of their graduating suckers of 2014 were able to find FT/LT employment but the $chool enrolled 245 students.

      Worse yet: in the last year that NYL$ opted to publish salary information, the proud 31.8% of the class (those who presumably had higher-end salaries) had a median of $58,000. Considering the cost of living in New York, that's a life-sentence of debt.

    2. As my dad once said: "Cost and price are unrelated." He was a mechanical engineer in the sales dept. of a Fortune 50 company.

      Whatever benefit NYLS obtains from renting buildings will have NO effect on tuition. Price and cost are unrelated. Price (tuition) will be what the market will bear. Whether a law school covers all of its costs from endowment, or all from tuition, the price of tuition will be what students will pay, or will be willing to borrow.

      Whatever economies of scale, or of operation the law school can realize, it has no bearing on the level of tuition.

      As long as students can borrow their tuition, no matter how much it is, tuition will rise. Law school administrators will rejoice, vacation condos will be purchased, and the real estate market in South Florida will flourish.

      And children will be damned. As an attorney aged 60, what law schools do to children is simply abuse, plain and simple. I could not afford, at age 60 to pay off $160,000 in tuition debt with a "going concern" law practice. How can newbies, with nominal salaries do so?

      How can a newbie with such law school debt get married, buy a car, buy a house, have children, take a vacation, buy a business wardrobe, pay for health insurance, pay for life insurance, pay for disability insurance, and so on and so forth.

      I have only had 3 family vacations ever as a parent. Never had the money to do so. Well, I did, but had more responsible things to keep it for.

      My 3 children will not be lawyers, though could hand them a going concern law practice. I would not allow it. That ought to say something.

      Do not go to law school. Don't go near lawyers. Don't go near courthouses. Avoid folks in suits, or with briefcases, or who look aimless, or focused.

      I wasted my life being successful at sh*tlaw. I am very, very good at it. The "Belly of the Beast" attorney is scary smart, but I think I could even keep pace with him, and frankly, I think he would agree after a few moments of discussion though his experience and success far exceed mine.

      When I went to law school, tuition was $1,100 per year for 32 credit hours. 1974. I made $500 or $600 a Summer working at scout camp.

      To keep pace with that ratio, you would have to make about $21,818.00 per Summer. Well, if you can do THAT, why become a lawyer, as you are doing better than me.

    3. I reply to my own post.

      I have painfully espoused the wisdom of my 38 years as a solo, and no one seems to respond. My efforts are stressful, and no one seems to have listened, or taken my comments to heart.

      So be it. They will pay dearly for their deafness.

      I have deleted my bookmarks to Third Tier. Not that I am dissatisfied with Third Tier, for Nando is a God among Gods, but because the stress of following the nightmare, and espousing my knowledge of the disaster facing OL's and their apparent failure to listen and respond is more than I have the energy to continue to expend on the behalf of uncaring, innocent strangers, I must stop.

      So, I may check in from time to time. Make comments. The tenor of my comments is well identifiable were a OL interested in my view of things. Sometimes I have identified myself as "38 year solo" and sometimes as "Anonymous."

      May some one bless the OL's who now, in the face of the statistics that law school is a DEAD-BANG-LOSER, for I cannot have any sympathy for them.

      38 year solo singing off.

      (Bye,finally, gribble)

    4. 38 year solo, your effort is not in vain. Your stories and insight into the field was some of the best, most sobering advice I've come across. Along with the other stuff here, and at the other scamblogs, you may well have all helped save my life. I can't thank you enough. I've turned down numerous good offers at "top tier" schools (ie outside the t14 but above the top 50, with much of the tuition discounted) this past year. I have come up with a better, more viable and meaningful plan for my life. I don't begrudge you leaving, but I don't doubt that if you ever find the time and energy to return, that some prospective 0L will benefit from that.

      To my mind, you all are reminiscent of Old Testament prophets. You may not believe in such things, but I know there is a higher power and purpose than this day to day, dollar obsessed world we see. And I hope you don't accept the world's characterization of helping everyday people as $hitlaw. As long as we live under the corruption of our system of financial insider graft with its magic money creation for the privileged few, so many of the jobs that really PAY are in service to some of the more inhuman and self-centered people.

      May God bless you. I don't say that as a light hearted platitude. Really. You may never be rich, but there are things much bigger than that.

    5. Anon at 9:17:

      Thanks for your kind words. I have found that 90% of my practice of law is teaching-clients, other attorneys, judges… The trick is to explain in a way that the audience can "grasp."

      Statistics of percentages of graduates from a particular school not finding jobs, etc. just don't grab minds.

      Posing the question of "From a take home check of $3,000 a month, how will you pay $900 rent, $550 car payment, $600 food, $500 health insurance, $750 student loan, business attire, auto insurance, life insurance, entertainment, save for retirement, etc…?"

      Most folks can do that math, and hopefully that gets them thinking about the practical reality of the extraordinary level of law school debt students now incur for a degree that earns a mediocre salary, if a salary can be had at all.

      Thanks for posting-we need more 0L's posting here.

      38 year solo

  2. CLOSE this shit hole law school down!!!

    1. Better yet, merge it with Pace and Hofstra, to get rid of two schools instead of one!

    2. With any luck, global warming and ocean level rise will inundate all 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tier law schools. Harvard is probably toast being in Cambridge. I have never met a Harvard grad as none have been sentenced to Illinois.

  3. And Simon Business School will continue to drop in the rankings after this strategic decision. A few years from now, they'll wish they had "co-located" with an elite school like Fordham rather than a third-tier garbage pit like NYLS.

  4. Better be careful, Nando. Any mention of New York Law School could bring the New York/New Jersey collector trolls back to this site. Sweet dreams die hard sometimes.

    Its kind of like when I was collecting aluminum cans for recycling, and the decomposing sugar led the cockroaches to discover my apartment. Believe me, I got rid of those cans in a hurry.

  5. The new URochester theme song? is it?

    ♫Well we're movin on up, to the east side.
    To a deluxe shithole in the Manhattan skyline.
    Movin on up to the east side.
    We finally got a piece of the (TTT) pie.

    Fish don't fry in the kitchen;
    Beans don't burn on the grill.
    Took a whole lotta tryin' just to get up that (shit)hill.
    Now we're up in the minor leagues
    Gettin' our turn at bat.
    As long as we live, it's you and me sucka (students)
    There ain't nothin wrong with that.

    Well we're movin on up, to the East Side.
    To a deluxe shithole in the Manhattan skyline.
    Movin on up to the east side.
    We finally got a piece of the (TTT) pie.♪

    1. ^Comment of the month.

  6. I have been following the legal scamblog movement for 3 years.

    I am beginning to become depressed.

    I have been a solo practitioner for over 30 years.

    I do what is called sh*tlaw. I take care of plain folks, I do it well, and mostly they appreciate my work.

    I have 3 children and NONE of them will be lawyers. I told them that they should not be lawyers, that I would not support their being lawyers, and that if they became lawyers, IT WAS THEIR OWN DAMN FAULT.

    And so, why haven't the tier 3 and Tier 4 schools lost ALL APPLICANTS???

    No one should enroll in a Tier 3 or Tier 4 school, at all. Never. You will incur crippling debt, have little prospect of obtaining a job that requires a law degree. Even if you do obtain such a job, it will take decades to pay off your debt.

    Please do not go to law school.

    1. I live near a TTTT law "school" and get to interact with some of these kids. Many are desperate. They come from abusive homes, or have no real job prospects. Many are carrying loans from college. Some are single mothers or recent ex-military. A few middle aged people who want to pursue their lifelong "dream" of becoming a lawyer. Some are first generation immigrants who don't know better. I even know a couple with real mental issues, drug abusers and alcoholics. In sum, they are in a hole and keep digging.

    2. No one should enroll in a so-called Tier 2 school, either. Only a handful of schools—elsewhere I've given a list of 16—should be considered at all, and only under certain conditions.

      The "tiers" of US News & World Report are meaningless categories.

    3. I don't understand why anyone, outside those that are connected or don't have to pay a cent (often these things are mutually inclusive) would attend anything below a T5 law school.

      Doesn't make a lick of sense to me. I don't care how bad things appear, they are going to be worse 3 years later and $225k in the hole.

      And frankly, I doubt I would even attend anything outside the T5 even if it didn't cost me a dime, even if I got paid to go. The stink of the JD is too powerful, and those are 3 very prime years of a young person's life.

      I'm kind of giving up too. Nando is amazing to keep plugging. But none of the schools close down, and still way too many people keep going.

      I just don't care anymore.

      Good bye Cincinattus, 38 year solo. Let's leave things to Nando for as long as he is willing to carry the banner.

    4. So tell us, Old Guy, did you go to a school outside the Elite 16, or did you go to an Elite 16 school under the wrong circumstances?

    5. Which law schools are worth attending? See the answer here:


      And note that my assessment was generous, intended to prove that more than 90% of law schools are scams. I am not even sure of the wisdom of attending Yale nowadays (unless one comes from great wealth and privilege, which is the case for most people there), to say nothing of Michigan or Duke or Cornell.

      One thing is clear: If you can't get into anything better than, say, Vanderbilt, you should not go to law school at all.

    6. I went to an élite school under the wrong circumstances, namely being middle-aged and having neither money nor connections.

      Note that I do not believe that there are 16 élite schools. There are a few élite ones, a larger number of schools worth considering, and almost 200 toilets.

  7. A JD is a product (like going to Walmart and deciding between generic brand vs. name brand). I don't fully understand how tuition rates vary so between schools. I mean torts is torts and contracts is contracts at all of the schools, there really is not very much difference.

    The Big Law dream is dead, and if you want to practice, go to schools with cheap tuition. Either way its still a 50 / 50 chance of practicing law.

  8. I wonder how much the space cost them. Pigs. All of them. Every single law school.

  9. Despite being ranked in the bottom half of the third tier, NYLS is one of the most expensive law schools. I believe it is in the top 5 for cost. According to US News & World Report, NYLS 2014 grads carry the second highest debt nationally: $166,622 average with 83% graduating with debt.

    Last July its bar passage rate was one of the lowest in the state at around 70%. Yet it is admitting students with 147 LSAT's! (If the law school numbers website is accurate.)Why? Well despite Moody's and Standard & Poors downgrading the school's bonds and giving the school an overall negative outlook, someone has to pay those salaries (especially after the school shut down its Ll.M programs in finance and in real estate, and shut down its online mental health degree program, and is only offering some of the Ll.M in tax courses every other year). How much are they paid?

    Anthony Crowell $468,635. Marshall Tracht $451,477. Gerry Korngold $380,216. Jethro Lieberman $373,497. Ron Filler $358,024. Nadine Strossen $327,892. Deborah Archer $290,660. Carole Post (Dean Crowell's right hand woman) $279,854. David Schoenbrod $366,200. These numbers are from the school's Form 990 filed with the IRS.

  10. Although NYLS is in the bottom half of the third tier, it is one of the most expensive schools: in the top 5, I believe. According to US News & World Report, NYLS 2014 grads have the second highest levels of debt: $166,622 average with 83% of students with debt. Last July, the pass rate was around 70% -- one of the lowest in the state.

    Moody's and Standard & Poors both downgraded NYLS's bonds and gave the school an overall negative outlook. Their JD enrollment has dropped dramatically and they terminated their Ll.M in finance and real estate programs, and their online mental health program, and they are offering some courses every other year in the Ll.M tax program. So, if the website law school numbers is to be believed, NYLS is letting in students with LSAT scores of 147. Why? Look at the faculty salaries!

    Anthony Crowell $468,635. Marshall Tracht $451,477. Gerry Korngold $380,216. Jethro Lieberman $373,497. Ron Filler $358,024. David Schoenbrod $366,200. Nadine Strossen $327,892. Deborah Archer $290,660. Carole Post (Dean Crowell's right hand woman) $279,854. These are NYLS's own numbers from their Form 990's filed with the IRS.

  11. I went and checked where the University of Rochester school of business exists in the Rankings. Turns out that the Simon School of Business at the University of Rochester is the 37th most exhilarating, enrapturing, awesome school in the Union. It shares this honour with 3 other schools.

    Note that just like how Law has the T14. The top schools with all the prestige, business has the Magnificent 7, of which the University of Rochester is not one. So we have a two schools with low prestige, leaning against each other for support like two drunks.

    1. "Singing Loudly" - Lean on me, when your not strong, I'll be your friend, I'll help you carry on" !


  12. Hi Nando, I am a new follower and tried to post a comment yesterday but it hasn't appeared. It occurred to me that you might have tried to reach me by email. However, the email address that appears is no longer valid. I don't want to post the current email here and have it show up on the blog comment section. Is there a way you can let me know how to reach you?

  13. http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20150428/REAL_ESTATE/150429842/new-york-law-school-to-launch-joint-programs-with-business-school

    Back on April 28, 2015, Crain’s New York Business published a Daniel Geiger piece that was entitled “New York Law School seeks to partner with business school at its TriBeCa space.” Here is the full text of that article:

    “The University of Rochester’s Simon Business School is moving downtown to TriBeCa, where it will take space in an academic building owned and occupied by New York Law School.

    The Simon Business School, which has about 200 students in the city, is relocating to 185 West Broadway, between Worth and Leonard streets, from 1601 Broadway in midtown. Its new space will offer students a more traditional academic environment—a library, dedicated classroom space and other amenities such as an auditorium and meeting rooms. The schools did not disclose details of the deal.

    “This gives our students a much nicer space to work in [at] a beautiful location of the city," saidJanet Anderson, the executive director of professional programs at the Simon Business School. “We look at this as a real growth opportunity for us.”

    Both schools will be able to occupy 185 West Broadway because Simon Business School’s programs are offered only on weekends, while New York Law School runs classes during the week and on weeknights.

    “We have this whole building that’s basically empty on the weekends,” said Anthony Crowell, the dean and president of New York Law School. “It made it a perfect fit for both institutions.”

    Both Mr. Crowell and Ms. Anderson said one of the biggest opportunities to arise from being under the same roof was the potential to integrate legal and business education. New York Law students can take business classes, and business school students can take law courses, Mr.
    Crowell said.The move will allow Simon Business School and New York Law School to offer their students access to each other's curriculum. The schools are sorting out the details of such a collaboration.

    “Lawyers more and more are expected to understand business and have that kind of education,” said Mr. Crowell, adding that the schools may create joint degree programs. “We’re both interested in adding value for our students in the legal and business marketplaces.”

    As you can see, these academic pigs are scam artists. Who in their right mind would enroll at NYL$ and take business courses at something called the Simon Business School?!?! Are these cockroaches now accepting applicants with Down syndrome?

    By the way, Pig Anthony Crowell should go into stand up comedy. If lawyers are supposed to know more about business than ever before, shouldn’t they be able to figure out that incurring $187,453.60 in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt is beyond foolish?! Crowell cynically wants to make it seem as though these joinTTT programs will provide the students with more options. However, he fails to mention that this will result in even more student loan debt – but will not improve their chances in the job market. Burn in hell, filthy swine.

  14. "She splits the rent, $925 a month, with her boyfriend, Dan Tothill, who graduated from the University of New Hampshire School of Law in 2014.

    And, since then, Tothill's been applying for a lot of jobs.

    "The jobs that I've been able to find that are law jobs, one was only offering $10 an hour," he said.

    He hasn't found a legal job, but, for now, he's found a full-time job with an insurance company. It's not exactly what he had hoped, but he has $132,000 of students loans he needs to pay off."


    Why did he go to law school in 2011? Oh well, I am sure his borrowings helped provide a nice lifestyle for tenured professors and other law faculty. Thanks for playing, don't let the door hit you.

    No secure employment? $10 an hour sporadic gigs? You just need to apply the universality value of the law degree that all the law schools talk about. Heck, GE, MSFT, WFC, probably would want you as their next CEO...with all that book knowledge. You could be POTUS.

  15. http://blogs.findlaw.com/greedy_associates/2012/03/top-10-debt-inducing-private-law-schools.html

    Back on March 30, 2012, FindLaw posted a Stephanie Rabiner entry labeled “Top 10 Debt-Inducing Private Law Schools.” The entire article is provided below:

    "Law school debt. It's what compels you to remain within the BigLaw ranks long after the job has destroyed your soul. It's what requires you to choose between Top Ramen and a juicy steak. And for some, it's what catapults you into the drudgery that is document review.

    In other words, law school debt sucks. But luckily, you are not alone. Law students graduated with an average debt of $100,585 in 2011, according to data compiled by U.S. News and World Report. And those who graduated from the following schools have it the worst.

    1. John Marshall Law School ($165,178) 129
    2. California Western School of Law ($153,145) not ranked
    3. Thomas Jefferson School of Law ($153,006) not ranked
    4. American University ($151,318) 49
    5. New York Law School ($146,230) 135
    6. Phoenix School of Law ($145,357) not ranked
    7. Southwestern Law School ($142,606) 129
    8. Catholic University of America ($142,222) 82
    9. Northwestern University ($139,101) 12
    10. Pace University ($139,007) 142

    Unsurprisingly, the top schools for law school debt are all private. And in case you haven’t figured it out, those last numbers represent each school’s most recent ranking. Yes, people actually pay $153,000 to go to an unranked law school. Waste of money? You be the judge.

    U.S. News and World Report also took it upon itself to compile a list of the top least debt-inducing law schools. Georgia State University, ranked at an overall 58, topped that list with an average debt of $19,971. Brigham Young University, the only top 50 school on the list, comes in at number 10. But that may have something to do with the fact that members of the Mormon Church pay only a fraction of the school’s tuition.

    All in all, both lists paint a pretty sad picture. No matter where you go to school, you will probably spend the rest of your life paying off your law school debt."

    This listing is from US “News” & World Report average law student indebtedness rankings, more than three years ago! Apparently, the current batch of morons and waterheads failed to do any damn research into the cost of attending a third tier commode. But these mental midgets have the skills and talent to represent clients in important legal matters, right?!?! New York Law Sewer is featured prominently in 5th place, in that issue. It is still a GROTESQUELY OVERPRICED PILE OF ROTTEN GARBAGE.

    1. The difference between "not ranked" and "49" is insignificant. American might as well be unranked. Indeed, even Northwestern, the only one of those schools that anyone should even consider attending, is a questionable proposition at best, even without such monstrous debt. By my standards, which are based on utility rather than on quartiles, Northwestern is a third-tier institution.

  16. I just want to thank you for firmly convincing me not to waste any more time considering law school. As a former government adjudicator, it astonished me whenever I reviewed an unemployment claim from a lawyer in private practice for over 14 years with no allegations of misconduct resulting in her termination. Although such cases were rare at the time, it is obvious that attending law school is a horrible decision. I wanted to ask her "What the hell are you doing filing an unemployment claim?" Now I know. I've read several posts and especially enjoyed the .08 cent donation. Keep it up. THANK YOU!

  17. Drake Law had 4 adjunct professorships listed on Symplicity the last time I checked.... I think they fired a bunch of people and are trying to cheap out on replacing them. The war of attrition is getting to them, perhaps?


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