Saturday, March 19, 2016

The Law School Pigs Gladly Pave the Way to Financial Ruin, for Their Students

Average Law School Indebtedness List: Before we get to the meat and potatoes, let me state a basic fact of life: Robert Morse of US “News” & World Report has become an even bigger pussy. This debt figure is an important metric, in many ways more crucial than whether you attend the 56th “best” law school or the 71st “greatest” diploma mill in the country. After all, the students at both in$TTiTTuTTion$ face the same weak-ass employment prospects. So what has Vagina Bob Morse done now, you ask? Well, the eunuch no longer places the amounts in descending order of debt. He has recently decided to list these alphabetically by state, and then within each state he approximately lists the schools who reported, alphabetically. Yes, this old, wrinkled cunt is certainly looking out for the students, right?!?!

I had to do some searching, but according to USN&WR, here are the schools with the highest average law school indebtedness, for those members of the JD class of 2015 who incurred debt for law school. Remember that these figures do not take interest that accrues while the student is enrolled into account. The second number on each line represents the percentage of each diploma mill’s class who took on such debt: 

1. Thomas Jefferson School of Law: $172,726, 90%
2. Columbia University: $168,627, 59%
3. New York University: $166,022, 69%
4. University of San Francisco: $162,434, 79%
5. The John Marshall Law School: $162,264, 82%
6. California Western School of Law: $162,260, 89%
7. New York Law School: $161,910, 80%
8. Florida Coastal School of Law: $160,942, 94%
9. Georgetown University: $160,606, 73%
10. American University (Washington): $160,274, 80%
11. Vermont Law School: $156,710, 87%
12. University of Miami: $155,796, 72%
12. Northwestern University (Pritzker): $155,796, 78%

Look at that, people. Another tie, this one for 12th place! As you are well aware, each year’s overall law school rankings feature numerous idiotic ties. For instance, the tool will often bunch together several toilets in one rating spot. Specifically, this year, Third Tier Drake shares 111th place, with 11 other ABA law schools! What are the odds?

Student Loan Calculator: It’s sad that college students and grads give more thought to which blend they should buy from Starbucks than to taking out insane amounts of NON-DISCHARGEABLE loans. Ironically, MANY of these simpletons will end up as baristas after earning worthless degrees from pathetic “institutions of higher education.”

Instead of trying to gain admission to any ABA-accredited dung heap, they should these words from FinAid’s Mark Kantrowitz:

“The debt-to-income ratio is a standard tool for assessing whether a borrower will have difficulty meeting his or her repayment obligations. For example, most banks will refuse to issue a loan if the total of your monthly debt payments (i.e., mortgages, credit cards, auto loans, educational loans, etc.) exceeds 37% of your income. It is recommended that your educational loan payments represent no more than 10% to 15% of your income. This calculator uses the debt-to-income ratio and a projection of your starting salary to derive a manageable debt load for you. 

A good rule of thumb is that for the Stafford Loan, the manageable debt load is about the same as your starting salary.” [Emphasis mine]

How many TJ$L grads are going to make $200K+ per year, coming from that dung heap?! Keep in mind that they will have accrued loans from undergrad, as well. Hell, people attend Harvard and Yale Law so they can make $160K per year as a Biglaw associate – and they are happy to get that type of job.

The Glutted Lawyer Job Market: Check out the NALP National Summary Report for the Class of 2014. You will notice that there were 43,832 graduates, competing for 27,928 jobs that "require bar passage." However, this does not show the extent of the glut fully. Scroll down to page two, until you reach Size of Firm. There were 18,587 members of this cohort who obtained private law firm positions. Of that amount, a mere 5,043 were in offices with more than 250 attorneys – and those firms don’t want TT, TTT or TTTT grads.

Conclusion: Try not to be a vegetable, lemming. Do you think – for one millisecond – that you are going to land a Biglaw job coming out of TJ$L or VermonTTT?!?! All you will be sure to obtain is $150K+ in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, for a worthless law degree. Yes, that is a wise “investment,” huh?! Do you believe that you will roll around in a nice Jaguar, while representing “the people” against evil, giant corporations? Maybe you will help baby sea lions, through your legal acumen? Perhaps, you feel that you will make a living as a legal aid worker. How does making $36K per year sound to you, Bitch?!

Take a look at the names of the schools on the Average Law School Indebtedness list, from US “News” and Bob Morse. TTTThoma$ Jeffer$on Law Sewer, Univer$ity of $an Franci$co, The John Marshall Law Sewer, California We$TTTTern, New York Law $chool, Florida Coa$TTTTal Sewer of Law, and VermonTTT. Law firm hiring managers will laugh at your ass, the moment they see your pathetic resume and cover letter. Non-law employers will ask you if your law degree is from an online school or if its accredited. In the final analysis, it simply does not make ANY financial sense for you to incur $180K+ in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt – for a garbage law degree. All you are doing is supporting the lifestyle of lazy pig “law professors” who DO NOT GIVE ONE GODDAMN about you or your family, your future, or your inability to support yourself. Make sure you don’t drink wet paint either, Dumbass.


  1. Replies
    1. Sophisticated higher education consumers with an intricate financial position.

  2. I met a girl attending a school in this illustrious list. She had 20k in loans from her undergrad useless English degree and decided to attend Law school because: "what other option did she have, teach high school?" She spent her day glued to her smart phone, texting, videoconferencing and drinking cheap wine. I hope everything works out for her, but this is the end result of dumbing down the population.

    1. Unless she's going to NYU, Columbia, Northwestern, or (maybe) Georgetown, chances are she's fucked. I'm not sure that we've even gotten "dumber", so much as we've raised an entire generation of pampered middle class wannabe aristocrats. They never dealt with a fatalistic, "work hard at something you can tolerate, have a bit of fun, then you die" attitude. Instead, it was "you can be anything you want" and "follow your bliss". Now you've got legions of people who have been raised since birth to be incapable of being anything except white collar navalgazers, and the economy isn't producing enough jobs for those sorts of people.

    2. There are only three lower-middle class careers realistically available, and two out of three are overwhelmingly comprised of women:
      Nursing, elementary and secondary school teaching, plus accounting/bookkeeping. The latter is on its way to being outsourced to India.
      Unless you hit that 170 LSAT or are gifted enough to attend medical school, those are the options.

    3. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingMarch 20, 2016 at 7:43 AM

      You forgot retail monkey. She could take a job as an Assistant Manager at Ross or Famous Footwear. However, she wants to be the next Alicia Floreck. A lawyer that drinks a lot of wine and rides in a new Buick when not drinking or screwing disbarred supervisors. Whatever.

    4. What precisely is so horrible about teaching high school? That girl has no idea what she's talking about.

      My friend makes $80K teaching middle school in NYC, and another friend makes close to $100K teaching high school. They withhold a lot for union dues and things like that, but the position is secure and you have good benefits. Plus, when you retire at 55, you can start a whole other career.

      Today, there is a glut of unemployed teachers so getting into it may be hard, but there was a window back in the 1990s when you could have gotten in, and it would have paid off well.

      To be honest, if you exclude biglaw, teachers' salaries are the same if not better than lawyers' salaries--with some added advantages.

    5. 10:24 Have to agree with you. My daughter got a middle school teaching gig at a pretty upscale private school in the DC suburbs. She started at a salary in the mid 50s with full benefits. Works 40 hours per week plus 10-15 for lesson prep.
      The kicker is she works for 9 months of the year. Sure beats doc review with no benefits. Best of all, just a BA; no grad school debt.

  3. That's just for the schools who still bother to report this metric. Shitholes like Touro, Cooley and Infilaw are too chickenshit to volunteer this information.

    Of course, the scumbags running the ABA Section on Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar aren't concerned with issues like servicing a six-figure student loan balance. As long as they're getting a piece of the federally backed student loan action, they're more than happy to keep accrediting new diploma mills like LaVerne.

    Truly despicable.

  4. Good news: I just managed to talk someone else out of going to law school!
    I recently got a job somewhere and am getting to know the people there, and when discussing life with another young man in another department, he mentioned that he had considered criminal justice. I immediately thought of law school, and warned him about it, and against it.
    Ironically, he had never considered law school in the first place - he had only considered CJ because he had considered becoming a police officer! Still, he was very grateful for me pointing out a trap (law school) to him, and now he'll probably spread the word around.

    1. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingMarch 19, 2016 at 2:46 PM

      Be careful. I lost a good friend when I attempted to discourage his son from attending law school. Fathered berated me and told me that I was discouraging education. He then told me that I was a "poor" lawyer with limited skills and that he would never hire me. He told me that I couldn't make connections and on and on. That was from a friend.

    2. Sadly, I'm with the captain. I've been an attorney 30 years, and long ago gave up giving realistic advice to law-school wanabees. I used to spell it out for them and their parents, but it became apparent, very quickly, that my job was to endorse a decision already made. So all I do now is nod and smile and wish them well; it's not worth being called "bitter" and a "hater" which occurred when I suggested things like calculating income to debt rations. Silly me.

    3. I first formally introduced myself here almost a year ago (look in the comments here):
      ...and I know all about good friends not listening to reason. Thankfully, neither friend has "unfriended" me yet, but I can only imagine the spectacle of them finding out how screwed they are once they graduate from law school with utterly miserable job prospects.

      Ironically, as I was introducing myself there, I was making a new friend, someone who I was able to make a new friend, and I was able to talk him out of law school. Why? Turns out that he had done some temp work for Robert Half's legal department, and he had already gotten a taste of the horrors (i.e. insane work loads, psychotic bosses, etc.).

      But to the Captain and Anonymous; look on the plus side, fellas - you get to say "told ya so" when they crash and burn.

    4. 10:57 a.m. has it nailed.

      When I explain the perils of law school and a J.D. to 0L's, they look at me like I'm some sort of loser.


      39 year solo.

  5. I continue to marvel at the disconnect between a school's presTTTige and cost. Keep up the good work, Uncle Sam.

    1. Yes well, that is the government for you. They are great at destroying price discovery by removing risk taking consequences as well as managing to circumvent the pressures of the supply side for whatever sector they are busy inflating.

      It is a beautiful blend of creating a regulated economy while keeping the worst excesses of unchecked capitalism. There should probably be a name for this, I think it's generally called cronyism and occasionally an oligarchy, even a plutocracy, but none of these words truly captures the system in place.

      At this point, the Fed's policies remind me of a micro cap/penny stock caught in the debt death spiral. I am curious to see how this will work along with the regulation powers of the government bungling across every sector.

  6. Speaking of Drakes, the actor that played the retarded guy on L.A. Law just died. Larry Drake I think his name was. If Drake is Third Tier Drake, would Larry Drake be Second Tier Drake? (And by extension would that make Toronto's Drake the first tier of Drakes?)

    1. Intellectually delayed. or Intellectual disability or Intellectually Challenged.

    2. Rating the Drakes

      T1 = Sir Francis Drake
      T2 = rapper Drake
      T3 = Third Tier Drake
      T4 = Larry Drake
      T5 = Drake School of Irish Dance
      T6 = Drake School of Business (it's getting shut down. It was enrolling homeless people a few years ago.)

    3. After I read your comment, I looked up the Drake (Dreg?) School of Business and saw more about it for myself. Truly disgusting... recruiting homeless people like that; how long before law schools do that themselves?

    4. 6:43 AM...they already recruit the mentally disabled. Just take away the booze, caffeine, anti-depressants and other self prescribed meds and you could turn those places into mental institutions collecting federal subsidies instead of student loan tuitions.

  7. The problem is that you need an income equal to the debt you have taken on to be able to repay the debt. Columbia and NYU at $166,000 and $168,000 are big risks because you need a big law job for a period of many years to pay off the debt, and most big law jobs last for a much shorter time.

    Even if your parents paid the tuition, there is a big question as to the financial viability of attending Columbia or NYU today. If you get back your money but earn $60,000 a year in a small law firm or doing temp work after big law, well, you gave up on a more stable career for law. The number of people for whom it pays to go to law school is very few, like a Merrick Garland. Even with Garland, at age 63, he would probably be retired but for the life tenure factor of being a federal judge.

  8. You cannot count on a long-term income above the $40,000 range even if you have graduated from Columbia or NYU Law with a good record. That is without any life insurance or retirement benefits.

    Many recent graduates of Columbia and NYU earn $160,000 and get employer provided health benefits.

    Only a small percentage of 25+ year graduates of those schools earn nearly that much or get employer provided health benefits.

    My bet - the incomes for many, possibly a majority, 25+ year grads of Columbia and NYU are about a third of the total compensation of a 25 year New York City School teacher. The 25 year school teacher earns total compensation of about $230,000, including the cost of employee benefits.

    If you look at the women and minorities who are older graduates of Columbia and NYU Law schools, the earnings are going to be poor and employer-provided health insurance very spotty- for many, the employer-provided employee benefits are non-existent and the income insufficient to pay for employee benefits. There is no such thing as retirement benefits for many of these lawyers.

    Even at the top of the pile- Columbia and NYU Law - and even on scholarship, these schools are a massive, massive risk of wasting one's life and running into a lifetime of career failures, one after the next and a very poor financial decision to have attended law school. That is because the heavy reliance on big law placement in firms that have very low retention rates is an outright scam.

    1. "The 25 year school teacher earns total compensation of about $230,000, including the cost of employee benefits."

      I'm not saying you're wrong, but do you realize just how absurd and insane that number is? No financial system can sustain that except perpetual growth. Unbelievable.

    2. !:36PM - It's about $115,000 in salary at the top level for a NYCity school teacher. One needs various educational credentials (not a PhD) and 20 years of experience teaching to hit the top compensation.

      NY City spends as much on benefits as it does on compensation on average. That includes the employer component of Social Security.For older teachers with the higher pension formulas, it may be as much as $250,000 total compensation.

      Lawyers for the City get paid less or in any event not significantly more,depending on the position, even though they work more.

      The City unions do a great job for their members.

      And you get tenure after a few years as a teacher.

      I does take 20 years to get up to that level. Starting salaries for teachers are now over $50,000

    3. For fiscal 2016, the City is spending about $25 billion on salaries and wages, including Social Security and about $9 billion for each of retirement benefits and health and welfare benefits. See

      Anyway, the unions assure that union members who work for the City are paid quite well.

      Lawyers are not union members, so they do not share in the spoils here to nearly the same degree.

  9. To put things into perspective, if you get a job as a DA your starting pay will probably be between $55,000-60,000/annually. In most localities you are an at-will employee, so you are subject to getting fired not just because your boss doesn't like you, but also because your boss may be term-limited or lose the next election. IN other words, the prospect of being a career prosecutor is not good.
    And in most DA's offices, raises are few and far between, and when they do come along they are small, about 3% or so based on my experience in good year, nothing in a bad.
    How in the world does this salary even come close to paying the debt?
    It doesn't. But really the simple answer to all this is that the anyone who attends law school needs to realize that nobody-not the law school they attend, not the ABA, not the state bar-NOBODY-cares whether you ever work or ever pay back your debt. That debt is yours, and since it's non-dis chargeable-it's yours forever. There's nobody to complain to or petition or anything of the sort. You, the new law graduate, are stuck forever.
    Why in the world does anyone attend law school?

  10. Nando, I bet it makes Joshua Adams a/k/a Mr. Infinity, bonkers to know that his alma mater, Crooklyn Law, is now in the same tier as your alma mater, Drake.

    I previously posted a comment about running into a lawyer who is moonlighting as an Uber driver. Well, last night I ran into ANOTHER lawyer doing double duty as an Uber driver. It was very uncomfortable for him as he kept avoiding eye contact. I wanted to give him a $5 tip and asked him for change of a $20 and he refused to break the bill for the tip. Talk about foolish pride. Anyway, I remember that attorney used to work for a mid-size firm 10 years ago and then he went solo. If he is driving for Uber on the weekends, we can easily surmise how his solo venture is going. I wonder if law schools are reporting their alums who are Uber drivers as gainfully employed for purposes of massaging the 10 month employment stats.

    1. I think I remember that comment... were you the one who mentioned the Uber driver Jeff with the Lexus? That was quite a story, and I totally believe it.

      And just wait for the self-driving cars to come along in a decade...

      As for Mr. Infinity... I think he's still out there, howling and raging about his own situation while lecturing others on what to do. Wasn't he the one who flat-out refused to make any effort to pay back his law school loans? In the meantime, look at this pathetic efforts to lecture others on what to do (look at the comments section)...

  11. I am now listing the US “News” rating for each commode/diploma mills with the HIGHEST Average Law Student Indebtedness figures – as provided to the dead publication. To be fair, several excrement piles did not furnish this data to the magazine.

    1. Thomas Jefferson School of Law: FOURTH TIER
    2. Columbia University: 4th
    3. New York University: 6th
    4. University of San Francisco: FOURTH TIER
    5. The John Marshall Law School: FOURTH TIER
    6. California Western School of Law: FOURTH TIER
    7. New York Law School: 111th
    8. Florida Coastal School of Law: FOURTH TIER
    9. Georgetown University: 14th
    10. American University (Washington): 78th
    11. Vermont Law School: 132nd
    12. University of Miami: 60th
    13. Northwestern University (Pritzker): 12th

    Of course, Pussy Bob Morse of USN&WR listed the TTTT dung heaps as “Rank Not Published.” He did this years ago, after applying some more Vagisil onto his wrinkled, dry vagina.

    By the way, Atlanta’s John Marshall Law School is also ranked as a fourth tier trash pit. The John Marshall Law School – located in Chicago, Illinois – has some serious compeTTTTiTTTTion, huh?!

    Do you think – for one moment – that YOU are going to come out of TTTTs TJ$L, University of San Francisco, “The” John Marshall Law School, Cal We$TTTTern, or Florida Coa$TTTTal making ANYWHERE NEAR ENOUGH to reasonably repay your student loans – and sustain yourself?!?! If so, then you the mental capacity of a semi-retarded ape. Yes, the “law professors” and deans are trash, but YOU made the choice to enroll in these filthy toilets.

  12. Team AAMPLE Hear:

    Being a lawyer is not about chasing money anymore, that dream is dead. It should be for the noble pursuit of helping your fellow member's of society enhance their lives.

    First - do not go to an expensive law school. This is a suckers bet, and you should try to tip the scale in your favor.

    **FAMU, Southern, TSU, even Howard *** are an ok start.

    Second - understand that the game is rigged to benefit a select few. (there is a reason the top 10% of grads from most law schools get a ticket to OCI).

    So HCBU's are still affordable, and they get you where you need to go w/o the most debt!

    1. So Mr. AAMPLE, a couple of questions:
      How long have you been practicing law?
      Do you still believe the bar to be an artificial barrier to entry? If so, should we do away with all professional licensing exams?
      Why in the world do you include Howard, which has a long and distinguished history, including a graduate who was a SCOTUS justice, in this list of terrible schools?
      And why would you recommend that anyone attend Southern, which per the inflated ABA employment numbers for 2014(most recent year available) had a graduating class of 165; of these only 63 had jobs requiring a JD, and another 38 were unemployed(that's almost 25% of the graduating class). TSU-well, depending how to interpret the numbers, almost 50% of the most recent class were unemployed; FAMU's numbers were in the high 20s. What words of wisdom do you have for this 25%, who left Southern or these other fine schools with only debt?
      You clearly have no understanding of the legal marketplace; it's not just about debt, it's about the dearth of jobs for lawyers.
      Enough trolling. Debt, large or small, and no job is a bad combination, which is something you seem completely unable to comprehend.

  13. Bob Morse is a little bitch. I remember when he stopped listing numbers for the lower ranked law schools. Now all these ridiculous three way and four way ties. US news sucks! Morse caters to the law schools. He is a sell out.

  14. Another law school greed scandal.

    SUNY-Buffalo Law School, After Reducing Faculty By 50% Through Buyouts, Pays Former Dean $300k While He Works For World Bank

    By Paul Caron

    Law professor Makau Mutua has been on leave from UB for nearly a year and recently took a job in Washington D.C., yet the university is still paying the former law school dean his full salary – a salary that nears $300,000.

    Mutua is working as a human rights adviser for World Bank, an international financial institution that provides loans to developing countries. Such consultants in Washington, D.C., where Mutua’s Twitter account shows he spends most of his time, make an average salary of $90,000.

    Mutua, having recently stepped down as dean, taught one class in the spring of 2015 and was on leave for the fall of 2015. Still, UB paid him a salary equal to that of what he made as a dean. He made $292,443 in 2015, according to SeeThroughNY, which compiles salaries of New York state employees. He had a base salary of $255,500 and the rest was bonuses.

    The law school has reduced its size in recent years. The school announced in March of 2014 that it planned to shrink its incoming class from 200-225 students to fewer than 200 and to reduce its faculty from 48 to 40. Although the school has a total of 51 full-time faculty members employed, only 27 were teaching classes last fall – exactly half the amount that were teaching five years prior. ...

    Mutua receiving full salary despite being away from the school and taking on outside work is troubling beyond just the former dean’s individual case, a professor in the law school said. The professor said it raises questions about how UB regulates pay of faculty once they downgrade in positions.

    Mutua resigned as dean of the UB Law School in December of 2014 amid a lengthy legal battle with a former professor who claims Mutua wrongfully terminated him and committed perjury in the legal proceedings.

    The case has wound its way through court and included testimony from law faculty professors. In December, a U.S. magistrate judge recommended dismissal of the case to U.S. District Judge Richard Arcara, who will make the final decision. Jeffrey Malkan, the former law professor suing Mutua, said Arcara listened to his and Mutua’s lawyers’ arguments on Feb. 18 and he expects Arcara to make a final decision within three months. He said Mutua did not show up to the arguments.

    Mutua’s seven-year tenure as dean divided some of the school, as faculty attempted to hold a vote of no confidence in him in 2010. Then President John Simpson and then Provost Tripathi dismissed the attempt, according to emails obtained by The Spectrum in 2013.

  15. The most recent salary reported is 2015. This doesn't account for top-offs from the UB Foundation, salary he receives as a "Floyd and Hilda Hurst Faculty Scholar," or expense accounts on his extensive world travels.


    Name Employer/Agency Total Pay Subagency/Type
    Mutua, Makau W SUNY $295,600 SUNY Buffalo
    Mutua, Makau W SUNY $293,443 SUNY Buffalo
    Mutua, Makau W SUNY $292,423 SUNY Buffalo
    Mutua, Makau W SUNY $278,255 SUNY Buffalo
    Mutua, Makau W SUNY $270,607 SUNY Buffalo
    Mutua, Makau W SUNY $269,880 SUNY Buffalo
    Mutua, Makau W SUNY $269,259 SUNY Buffalo

    His wife, Athena D. Mutua, has also been on sabbatical for the entire 2015-16 year and she is also a Floyd and Hilda Hurst Faculty Scholar. They hold two of the three salary lines from this endowment.


    Name Employer/Agency Total Pay Subagency/Type
    Mutua, Athena D SUNY $153,983 SUNY Buffalo
    Mutua, Athena D SUNY $153,740 SUNY Buffalo
    Mutua, Athena D SUNY $152,715 SUNY Buffalo
    Mutua, Athena D SUNY $151,559 SUNY Buffalo
    Mutua, Athena D SUNY $147,868 SUNY Buffalo
    Mutua, Athena D SUNY $121,311 SUNY Buffalo
    Mutua, Athena D SUNY $95,415 SUNY Buffalo

  16. Vince says : October 30, 2014 at 6:14 pm
    I finished my undergrad in ’97, with a 3.4 GPA, but a disappointing 143 on the LSAT. At the time a family friend said he could easily get me into Thomas Cooley (but I knew better.) This site confirmed my wisdom today, but I digress. I just decided to not apply to law school because I knew I’d never get into a T, TT and perhaps not even a TTT. So I thought I would work in the “real world” and retake the LSAT in 3 year and therefore began working in banking in Charlotte. I loved the city but hated the business environment and in 2000 pursued my other passion, Federal Law Enforcement. I can tell you 15 years on the job I’ve never lacked for bread or opportunity. I’ve been a Special Agent for the last 10 of those years and I can tell you I can smoke the average law grad in any constitutional law argument and have vastly more experience than them in practically every area of criminal law. On top of that? Yes, we make far more than the United States Attorneys, especially the new hires not to mention what new grads at small firms make.

    Many of you, with your JDs would be prime candidates for the FBI, DHS, CBP, Main Justice, etc. Get on and get going. I truly feel very bad for what I’ve read here today. I was recently telling my wife, “perhaps at some point I’ll go pursue my life long dream of law school, even if part-time.” With what I’ve read about what the law schools are doing to so many of you bright graduates I am sorry to hear it. I do only wish the best for many of you going forward. (Yes I know law enforcement is not an option for everyone, but for some of you it is!!) Besides, many of the federal agencies have legal divisions, such as CBP and ICE.


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