Monday, April 25, 2016

Institutonal Idiocy in Action: University of Washington Officials Seek to Open a Separate Law School in Tacoma

Pigs Rehash the Same BS Arguments: On April 20, 2016, the News-Tribune featured a Melissa Santos article, which was entitled “Law school at UW Tacoma would be separate from Seattle program.” Check out the following nonsense:

“University of Washington officials are moving forward with plans to create a law school at the UW Tacoma and want it to operate separately from the law school at the university’s Seattle campus, UW President Ana Mari Cauce said Wednesday. 

Speaking at a meeting of the Tacoma City Club, Cauce said a standalone law school in Tacoma makes sense partly because the school would focus on subject areas that are important to the local community, such as environmental law, public service law and tribal law.

Beyond that, the proposed UWT law school will work hard to accommodate students who work full time, Cauce said. 

“This is not going to be a law school like every other law school,” Cauce told City Club members. 

“It really makes sense, given that the biggest purpose here is to fulfill the legal needs of this area, to have it be its own law school within the University of Washington Tacoma.” [Emphasis mine]
Forget lucrative “areas of practice.” Environmental law, public service dreck, and tribal law are not stable forms of employment. Later on, the story included this information:

“Bruce Kendall, one of the founding directors of a group that has been working to bring a law school to Tacoma, said the school would provide big economic benefits for the region. He and other members of the Tacoma Law Foundation think the law school could open as early as fall 2017.

Kendall, who is also the president and CEO of the Economic Development Board for Tacoma-Pierce County, said a law school is needed in the South Sound partly because many of the state’s current lawyers are baby boomers who are nearing retirement.

The UW Tacoma law school would help train new lawyers to take the place of those who are retiring, he said.

Lawyers educated in Tacoma also are more likely to stay in the area, helping fill local needs for legal services and helping boost the local economy, he said.

Tacoma hasn’t had its own law school since 1999, when the University of Puget Sound sold its law school to Seattle University.

“It’s part of being a mature, growing community to have these kind of educational opportunities at people’s disposal,” Kendall said.” [Emphasis mine]

Opening an unnecessary law school in Tacoma will line the pockets of a relative few people, i.e. contractors, developers, and “law professors.” Furthermore, Baby Boomer pigs are NOT retiring en masse. Anyone who states otherwise is a simpleton or a lying bastard. Older attorneys who have a successful practice typically stay in the field until they are into their 70s or older. They are certainly not going to voluntarily give up their clients, for the benefit of the next generation of lawyers.

Lastly, law grads are not beholden to stay in the area where they were educated. You go where there is employment. Plus, will adding several “professionals” who make $35K-$43K per year boost Tacoma’s economy. Hell, the area will likely see an increase in Food Stamp applications among those with advanced degrees.

Other Coverage: On April 22, 2016, Paul Caron wrote a thin entry labeled “University of Washington (Seattle) to Open Separate Second Law School in Tacoma.” Scroll down to these two comments. On the same date, at 6:27:22 am, “Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance King” wrote the following:

“A law school on every corner. Even Walmart, Starbucks and McDonalds close stores corresponding with the market. I will bet, just like in good old Illinois, if one were to flip open the Tacoma Yellow Pages to the "Lawyers" section, it will be the largest segment in the book. All desperate attorneys seeking clients, fees, and work. Those are the micro firms and solos that can afford two bills a month......” [Emphasis mine]

On April 22, 2016 9:26:04 am, “Unemployed Northeastern” dropped this turd in UW’s punch bowl:

“Let's see now. There are three law schools in the state of Washington. Gonzaga placed 92 of 162 graduates from the Co2014 into full-time, long-term, license-required jobs at any salary. Seattle University, 144 of 295. UWash, 127 of 200. That's 363 of 657 graduates overall, or 55%. Pretty much a mirror of the nationwide average, and I'm not aware of anyone, including prawfs, arguing that we don't have enough law schools nationwide. Oh, and only one school - Gonzaga - has released its NALP reports. For the Co2014, the median salary was just $54,000, and that's with a 42% reporting rate. Factor in the 19% unemployment rate, and it means that we only know that about 1 in 5 graduates made that median or more.” [Emphasis mine]

These two commenters ripped this plan to shreds, with facts, numbers and solid analysis. For $ome rea$on, the Univer$ity of Wa$hington and the CEO of the Economic Development Board for Tacoma-Pierce County overlooked these numbers.

Conclusion: In the end, if the “educators” want to shell out serious cash – courtesy of state and federal tax dollars – to open a separate law school. When the toilet fails to attract decent size classes of morons, the cockroaches will need to explain that to their bosses. There was no damn reason to open a law school at Indiana Tech, and the same applies to Tacoma. If you really want to go to law school, there are currently over 200 ABA-accredited diploma mills – and DOZENS of them will admit you, even if you have a 2.8 UGPA and scored 145 on the LSAT. Plus, there are already three commodes in the state, with two located in Seattle. For those not familiar with the area, Seattle is roughly 33 miles from Tacoma.


  1. You know, just earlier today or yesterday I was wondering if anyone would be dumb enough to try and open a new law school in this country, especially after the embarrassing opening of Indiana Dreck School of Law. Now I know because my question has been answered.

    Oh, and thank you Nando for reiterating the point about the [non-]exodus of the older folks [not] retiring anytime soon. Those old-timers will stay at their jobs until either they keel over dead at their desks, they become too seriously sick or crippled to continue working, or somehow everyone else figures how to force them out.

    1. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingApril 26, 2016 at 3:00 PM

      Frankly, I can not criticize older attorneys for several reasons. 1. They can not afford to retire. 2. That generation helped me start my practice and professional career. 3. They will throw you business as they slow down. 4. Here is the biggy....even when they do retire or there is "attrition" their jobs are ELIMINATED as a COST cutting measure.

    2. Sorry, Captain Hruska Carswell, my mistake if I wasn't clearer... I wasn't suggesting that those older attorneys don't deserve to be thrown out, I was just pointing out how they're hanging on for dear life themselves (especially because their own prospects aren't looking so good).


    Med school leaders: Why we’re not participating in the U.S. News rankings any more

    A school’s rank is also heavily influenced by a vague sense of “reputation.” Forty percent of each school’s score is derived from two annual surveys: one sent to medical school deans and top administrators, the other to residency program directors. Both groups are asked to rate the quality of every medical school from one (marginal) to five (outstanding).

    Because none of us can fairly score all of our peer institutions, more than two-thirds of medical school deans and an even higher percentage of residency program directors toss the survey in the trash.

    Bob Morse is a pussy!

    Here is a response from Robert Morse, chief data strategist for U.S. News:

    We wish that Dr. Kellerman and Dr. Rice had reached out to us directly about their concerns. It is our policy to meet with medical school deans and faculty who have suggestions about improving the Best Medical Schools rankings for prospective students.

  3. Are there no sensible people in Washington state? I'm very familiar with the area-the cities are so close they're often referred to as one-"SeaTac". Having two law schools in that area was more than enough; having three is idiocy. Aren't there any taxpayer groups seeing this scam? The taxpayers are going to take a hit twice-UW is a state-funded school, and the loans the soon-to-be un or underemployed students take out are federally guaranteed-never to be repaid, ruining the students financially and slamming the taxpayers. Will the madness ever stop?

    1. I could be wrong, but I *think* the feds ceased 'guaranteeing' private student loans circa 2010.

      "As of June 30, 2010, Congress stopped the guaranteed student loan program for newly issued loans."

      Nevertheless, I generally agree 100% with your remaining points.

  4. I'm sure the assholes at UW will get plenty o' taxpayer money for start up money for this (unnecessary) shithole. You know, it being a public benefit and all.

  5. “This is not going to be a law school like every other law school.”

    Yawn, yawn, Y-A-W-N.

    Indiana Tech wasn't going to be just another law school either. Nor was the University of California at Irvine. Nor the Infilaw chain. Yet they all turned out to be much of a muchness. They haven't innovated a fucking thing.

    And Tacoma is not a distinctive area with special legal needs; it's another dipshit chain-store suburb like every other.

  6. Unemployed people should be counted as reporting an income of $0. That will drive the median reported income down, as it should.

    1. Well, anyone that doesn't "respond" to the employment survey should also be counted as unemployed.

      Since the Federal Government is guaranteeing student loans however, all they have to do is look at IRS receipts and report that way. They refuse to do so, and the law schools certainly don't want them to do so either, simply because the numbers are so awful and this scam would have been exposed long ago if it were done that way.

      I don't know how the law school published statistics aren't outright fraud, but nobody wants to claim them as such.

      If that's the cause, and it's simple puffery, either the government needs to get out of the business of student loans and telling kids to go to school, or the government needs to start granting loans for other private sector businesses and provide free advertising.

      Imagine if everyone could get a loan for a Ferrari and the government insisted it was a good investment? But say they were actually Fords with a Ferrari cover on top of them. Then we'd pretend that wasn't fraud, and that's what higher education in the US is.


    Back on May 1, 2014, Patricia Sully published a Post Defiance blog entry that was labeled “Tacoma needs a law school like I need a hole in the head.” Look at this epic opening:

    “Over the past few months, you might have caught a few of the headlines — Good news! A law school might be coming to Tacoma!

    In mid-March, lawmakers approved $400,000 in seed money to bring a law school to University of Washington-Tacoma. Notably, the push is not from the school itself but rather from a bipartisan group of state senators led by Senator Steve O’Ban, a University of Puget Sound law school alum. A steering committee of local citizens and the late Chancellor Debra Friedman proposed a 2015 start and hope to raise $2.25 million over three years to support a fairly modest launch: a night program with thirty students initially, taught by five professors.

    The South Sound lost its only law school in 1999 when the University of Puget Sound sold its law school to Seattle University. Now, of the three law school in the state, two are located just miles apart in Seattle, and the other in Spokane.

    It makes sense that Tacoma wants one back.

    As a Tacoma resident, I certainly understand that desire. But I’m not sure I believe the rhetoric about why it makes sense.

    Bruce Kendall, president and CEO of the Economic Development Board for Tacoma-Pierce County,has argued that we — the South Sound — are not adequately served by the existing law schools. He went on to say: “A law school at UWT is the most important economic boost to this region in years. It is equal in magnitude for Tacoma to the arrival of State Farm.” Similarly, Senator O’Ban said restoring a law school could attract high-caliber attorneys to the area. — “You’d hope they come to Tacoma to go to law school and stay there and practice there.”

    This piece was written damn near two years ago, and the legal job market for recent graduates has not improved in that time. LPOs, automation, and easier digital access to case law and statutes have continued to take a collective toll on the supposed “profession.” If anything, outsourcing and predictive coding have picked up at a faster clip. Frankly, attorneys were able to do well in the past, partially, because they had access to information that was largely kept from the public.

    While there is demand for lawyers among deadbeats, bums, drug addicts, and other broke bastards, how are these losers going to pay the legal bill? Attorneys are not going to work for free on your eviction or domestic violence case, genius. And cash-strapped states are not going to provide huge infusions of taxpayer money into legal aid clinics or “public interest” firms. The public is tired of these schemes, which are targeted to benefit the dregs of society. See the failed "Great Society" programs for a historical reference.

  8. Sully provided the following analysis, later in her article:

    “I can’t help but wonder, however, if perhaps a bit of nostalgia and over eagerness is clouding the view. After all, the world looked quite different in 1999. The legal market was different in 1999. And notably, UPS did not simply cease to have a law school in 1999 — it sold its law school to Seattle University. A gap in Tacoma might have been created, but I’m not sure a gap in legal education was. Supporters have stated that a new UW-T law school would be “deluged” with applicants. Maybe. Maybe not. Certainly they would get more than thirty interested individuals. But the real question is not whether people would apply. It is whether there should be a school to admit them.

    Hint: I don’t think there should be.

    The state of law schools is a bit bleak these days. If you haven’t been keeping tabs, the news is largely not good — there are fewer jobs, fewer applicants, and rising concerns about cost. In response, schools are getting smaller, not bigger. 54% of law school admissions officers report cutting the size of their incoming class in 2013-14, and 25% already intend to do it again for 2014-15.

    Legal employment numbers are not quite as dismal as they were immediately after the 2008 crash. They are still pretty darn grim though. Nationally, fewer than half of all 2011 graduates found jobs in private practice; and nine months after graduation and only 57% of 2013 graduates were employed in long term legal jobs at the same mark. On the local level, in 2013, less than 50% of Seattle University School of Law graduates entered full-time, law degree (J.D.) required work. Gonzaga and UW fared slightly better, with full-time J.D. employment rates around 70% each. Those with jobs are getting paid less on average than graduates even just a few years ago, and carrying an increasingly high debt load — the average law student enters the workforce close to $100,000 in the red.”

    A brand new TTTTT in the area will attract morons. However, it will not provide them with anything approaching a decent employment outlook. First, the school will have no name recognition outside of the area – and that matters a ton when you are looking for respectable work. Secondly, the toilet will not even have an established alumni network. Do you think that graduates of Gonzaga or UW will work their contacts for the benefit of idiots who graduated from a different commode?!?!

    Perhaps you believe that the mental and moral midgets in the state legislature will hire the dolts in decent positions. Yeah, sure they will – and Sofia Vergara and Penelope Cruz are going to kidnap you and then tag team your ass in the bedroom! The cockroaches at the Economic Development Board for Tacoma-Pierce County – led by Bruce Kendall – will not throw legal work their way, either. In the end, this is a vanity project meant to feed a few egos. Apparently, the region needs even more FINANCIALLY RUINED law grads with garbage employment prospects. Yes, that’s the ticket to economic growth and prosperity, right?!?!

    1. BUT,,,,, it will give laid-off law professors in Seattle a chance to get a job within commuting distance. So, clearly, it is in the public interest.

  9. It appears that this school will be built on a foundation of lies(about the need for new attorneys) and dolts, funded almost solely by taxpayer $$$. Years ago, there was a hue and cry about Alaska's "Bridge to Nowhere"; why isn't someone, anyone, in Washington asking questions? By the time this boondoogle is completed, the taxpayers will be out millions of dollars, and the naive/dolts/Special Snowflakes will find themselves financially ruined. And it's your and my tax dollars creating this mess.

  10. Team AAMPLE:

    We support this law school on two conditions:

    1. They establish an AAMPLE or alternative admit program and pledge
    to keep tuition at a reasonable rate.

    2. This school also must pledge to include an initiative to increase enrollment of minority lawyers over the coming years.

    It's time to change the legal system, and we could look at the HCBU's for the blueprint.

    Old Guy... do you Concur ???

    1. Seriously "we"....let's be honest-Team AAMPLE is you and you alone.
      And why are you so eager to consign minority students to the debt hell that is the law school scam? It's all well and good to increase minority enrollment-but where is the increase in jobs for these attorneys? Every year, twice as many students graduate with JDs than there are jobs requiring JDs. Each post of yours completely ignores the reality of the law market.
      Please, please go away before some naive soul reads your drivel and attends one of these TTTs and ends up with a mountain of debt and no job.

    2. Team AAMPLE,

      This is only anecdotal evidence, but 10 years ago when the law sewer’s were claiming every law grad was guaranteed a job making $100k, I had a few friends who were minority law students. After I graduated jobless, and I was escaping debt slavery in the U.S. Army, one of my friends called me. He was unemployed, desperate, and was considering enlisting. Keep in mind that around this time, the economy was supposed to be great, law schools bragged of 99% placement rates at 100k, and the war in Iraq was a disaster. I had a long talk with him about how much the Army sucked. I never heard from him again. A few years after law school, I tried searching for another friend of mine. I searched lawyer databases and the state bar lawyer search. I couldn’t find him anywhere. Maybe he was one of the first people to get in on those great JD Advantage jobs, before anyone knew about them. Contrast those job outcomes with a non-law school friend of mine who belongs to a minority group. He went the STEM route and became an engineer. He is making about $100k. If there were no jobs for most lawyers before the economy tanked, how could this possibly be a good time for people to go to law school now? Especially for minority groups who face discrimination.

      E-4 Mafia

    3. @ 5:29

      The tone of your post is not warranted. Nothing wrong with wanting more diversity, cheaper tuition, and people to not give up their dreams of joining the legal field.... if done the "right" way.

      The legal field has changed, like many of the other hundred professions in the USA. This is no excuse to throw your hands in the air and give up.

      Moving forward, a person should never give up on their dreams. They must:

      - Study their environment
      - re-set/set reasonable expectations / outcomes
      - Create a clear plan of action
      - Minimize cost along the way
      - Work hard

      Getting a JD will make you apart of the most educated members of society. This is a gift. (Although to monetize it these day's is still possible, but will take an out of box thinker).You obviously don't get it.


      So as you dismiss the HBCU's, please understand the other side of the oppressed....some empathy would be appreciated.

      Going to Law School is still possible. Just weigh the benefits and cons, and proceed with caution. End of story.

      And for those who pulled the trigger and did none of the above. Have a come to Jesus meeting with yourself. Admit that you made a poor decision. And try to make the best of the rest of your life. Re-invention time !!!

    4. No, 12:42, the tone is warranted, as your drivel is at best puerile.
      First, let's eliminate your many straw man arguments which have nothing to do with anything, frankly.
      This has nothing to do with HBCUs(glad you finally got that right. although it would be "oppressors" not "oppressor's"). This is about attending LAW SCHOOL.
      It also has nothing to do with wanting "more diversity, cheaper tuition, and people not to give up on their dreams".
      This isn't Magic Land, where you waive a Magic Wand and-viola!-cheaper tuition. On a factual basis, what school has "cheaper" tuition? You can't name a school-even FAMU law school, which you so famously love, costs over $50k a year if you're out of state.
      And diversity would be great-if there were jobs. Should the law be more "diverse"? Of course-but how does it help a minority applicant to incur a ton of debt when there are no jobs? And there are so many lawyers(and new JDs every year-to the tune of over 40K/year)-how exactly, does that set anyone apart? Take a look at FAMU's bar results and placement statistics-where's the upside? If you're really concerned about advancement, encourage people to enter careers where there are actually jobs.
      This isn't some sort of game, where you get'em next time, or there's always next season. This is the real world, where loan interest accrues and bills have to be paid and lives can be ruined by too much debt. The advice you give is suitable-maybe-for a third grade Little League team. For adults in the real world-it's dangerous and irresponsible. It's clear that you've got an agenda, and don't give a damn about any poor soul who takes your advice. You speak of "empathy", so let's talk about genuinely caring. Is it better to give people terrible advice, grounded in fantasy and sports slogans, or is it better to help people avoid making disastrous decisions? If your empathy is so overwhelming, why don't start co-signing school loans?
      So the only thing I'm categorically dismissing is your terrible advice.

    5. @ 12:42,

      How about you keep your worthless opinions about others' tones to yourself until you learn the difference between plurals and possessives, ok?

      Quit wasting our time defending HBCUs; your bullshit is incoherent. HBCUs are run by a league of Uncle Toms who are more than complicit in the scamming of their own minority brethren for government loans. If you're too stupid to realize this, that's even more of a reason to stop wasting our time with your worthless posts.

    6. Moving forward, a person should never give up on their dreams.

      What a bunch of doofy nonsense. The economy does not care about your dreams. By and large, people get paid for performing services and building products that other people want and are willing to pay for. Nobody, except maybe a family member, will pay you money because "you're following your dreams". It's both silly and narcissistic to think that people will give you THEIR money because you are following YOUR dreams. They will be spending their money on their own dreams, thank you very much.

      Nobody hires a lawyer as an act of conspicuous consumption spending or because they've always aspired to pay money to a dork in a suit. They pay lawyers when they NEED to get a lawyer and if they can't get a free one through legal aid. There is a limited pool of legal work for which people can actually pay money. There are now too many lawyers fighting over that pool. The market is cold and pitiless. It does not care one iota that you always dreamed about being a lawyer.

      Getting a JD will make you apart of the most educated members of society.

      Hoo-fucking-ray. Unless you can trade your perceived status for goods and services, you're not exactly going to be enhancing your lifestyle if you get "status" and no money. No amount of degrees can give you status if you're puttering around in a 20-year-old minivan trying to hustle the impoverished for petty legal fees so you can afford rent on a hideous dump of an apartment located in the middle of a ghetto.

      Speaking of "status", I don't know if you've been living under a rock, but the idea that lawyers are high status is absurd. Highly successful lawyers, who disproportionately go to elite schools, could be called high status. The occasional successful ambulance chaser can get very wealthy, but I'm not sure if they'd be called "respectable". A FAMU grad trying to make ends meet by hustling traffic cases is not high status. They're not even medium status.

      Going to Law School is still possible.

      Of course it's possible. The most recent Cooley data shows a median LSAT of 141. Reasonably well-groomed livestock could go to law school in this academic environment.

      Just weigh the benefits and cons


      1. You can call yourself "Esquire"
      2. You have a very expensive occupational license in a field with more licensed practitioners than there is work.


      1. Nearly guaranteed six-figure debt.
      2. Making yourself "too educated" for non J.D. jobs, and "not qualified" for most J.D. jobs that pay more than beer money.
      3. Probable depression and alcoholism.
      4. Destruction of any existing liquid wealth, followed by garnishment to pay off your loans.
      5. Many people will consider you an asshole. Sure, M&A lawyers are well-paid and don't interfere with most people's day to day lives. People don't mind considering them high status. Potato lawyers are often embroiled in defending hideously immoral people in criminal court, or trying to "hustle" bogus civil cases. It only takes getting hit once or twice with a bogus civil suit to make people develop a HATRED of "hustler" lawyers.

    7. He's right. (@ 6:29AM and before).

      You don't get any "do-over's" in life and that applies to the non-dischargeable student loan debt which the "Edukation Asshole-e-os" will GLADLY put anyone in who can sign a promissory note so they get their 6-figure paychecks, 6 hour workweeks, and discretionary spending accounts - and, lest I forget something GOLD-PLATED pensions after they retire.

      There's no need whatsoever for one single additional law school in the US. In fact, if ALL law schools closed down for 10 years, no one would notice the difference.. Demand would not increase at all for lawyers because no new jobs would be created.

      Boomers aren't retiring because these assholes spend like drunken sailors and will die in debt - not broke, in debt and owing - before they ever cut back on their consumption, "Me First" lifestyle..

      They can't afford to retire so they won't. It's as simple as that.

      Once I saw the table on tuition and saw that Thomas Jefferson (re: Alaburda - 'memba her? Second chances anyone?) total average debt of 172,000 fucking American dollars was MORE than Columbia at $154,000 or so.. I realized the gravity of the bullshit.

      All schools are calibrated on debt levels that assume ALL their students will get Biglaw. Obviously those at Columbia have a shot while those at Thomas Fucking Jefferson also have a shot - of receiving DICK.

      Lower tuition? NOT GONNA HAPPEN when the Fed. Gov't is complicit in the Scam along with the ABA and the Deans. ALL schools are colluding. They are all priced just about the same.

      Even Syracuse wants to offer an online JD priced the SAME as attending in person with even less chance of anything good coming from it.

      It's essentially a night program targeted at anyone dumb enough to enroll and whereas the night people may also have contacts along with the day students, the online people will likely have nothing making the program even more senseless EXCEPT to Syracuse who simply sits back and rakes in the extra cash. They are simply trying to broaden their market as much as possible while offering nothing in return.

      Typical Boomer Scam.. like everything else and the rest of law.

  11. There are a combined 1542 students seeking JDs in the state of Washington (attending Gonzaga, Seattle, and the University of Washington Sewers of Law). The University of Washington School of Medicine (the only M.D. program in the state) has a total enrollment of 1025 students. Keep in mind, this school serves the states of Washington, Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, and Idaho! The U.S. “News” and World Report ranks this school as the #1 medical school for primary care. A rational person would use those public funds to expand the medical school, the business school, or engineering school. You want to bring economic development to the region, churn out more business grads, engineers, and doctors. The region doesn’t need more broke ass law grads working in shady strip malls charging $500 for a DUI.

    1. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingApril 28, 2016 at 2:35 PM

      Holy SHIT Holy Shit Holy Shit.....You guys in Washington are getting five bills for a DUI?????? I am loading up the family into the '96 LeSabre hitching up a U-Haul and seeking bar reciprocity for my Illinois license. We only get three bills here and there are billboards from the Ticket Clinic advertising $49.00 court appearances. I can seek my fortune in Washington and boost my legal fees nearly 50%. This is great. With fees like that I'll be able to finally get into that '02 Camry I had my eye on.

  12. In this age of the internet how does the following thought enter any lemming's head:

    I have a really good idea for my future. I'm gonna go to (super duper expensive) law school? No sympathy for any dumbshit who enters now.

  13. Is there any data to show that low GPA and low LSAT scorer's perform horrible as lawyers? (beyond predicting passing the bar) ?

    I mean plenty boobs, graduate law school, then pass the bar, but are unable to competently practice law.

    Since they would need OJT, and learn how to perform specific task. Again, this leads us back to the situation.

    So we have a few low scorers academic wise. I bet they would beat the pants of the Tier 1 grads any day.

    If two grads were given the same big law position ( but the two grads had a JD and passed the bar - one from Tier one and the other tier 4) the on the job performance (produced results) would be totally independent of which law school they went to.

    Don't understand why people make such a big distinction between the tiered law schools. A JD is a JD. Anyone telling you otherwise is steering you down the wrong path.

    Its such a pity that all law grads do not get the same job opportunity based on this baseless, misguided old school way of thinking.

    The guy from Thomas Cooley is just as capable!

    1. "Don't understand why people make such a big distinction between the tiered law schools."
      No question that's it's a perverse and prestige driven system, but that's what it is. If you attend one of the very top schools, you may just get one of those 160k jobs that are talked about(although you may be sorry you did, but that's another post). Coming out Cooley-no chance of that happening.

    2. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingApril 28, 2016 at 2:39 PM

      Gee, you sound like that slick TV ad from Phoenix....where they say, "A degree is only just a degree." And if you had a brain, you would hire me! Would you want a doctor performing open heart surgery on you who attended Joe's Medical College? Drive across a bridge from Ed's Engineering School?

    3. Don't understand why people make such a big distinction between the tiered law schools. A JD is a JD. Anyone telling you otherwise is steering you down the wrong path.

      This is "true" in the sense that there are maybe 10 schools which produce a JD with actual luster. Everything else is shit, and the ratings are essentially an argument about the relative smelliness, chunkiness, and bloodiness of that shit.

  14. I don't follow this stuff as much as I used to, so can someone tell me how IBR/PAYE, or whatever they call it these days, is affecting the economics of deciding to go to law school? After all, applicants are being told by the scammers that their debt load doesn't matter because they will only pay a fixed % of their income. Anecdotally I have heard that the debt really isn't keeping people from getting car loans, mortgages, etc because loan officers know that so many people are on these soft default plans.

    1. This is "the Supporter of the Old Guy." Here is the scoop on student loans. student loans in arrears (or defaulted) definitely affect your credit. You will be denied credit cards, home loans, and especially favorable car loans (e.g. 0% or subsidized loans). But with damaged credit, you still have a shot at subprime car loans (11 to around 28%). The belief that bad student loans do not affect your credit comes from the subprime car loan market.

      The job market for lawyers is bad. If you are young and in favorable circumstances (e.g. living with parents), then it is time to work incredibly hard and earn a different profession. You will be better off than competing for $300 DUIs. That is just a death spiral--a race to the bottom. Unless you have the connections or are going to inherit an established law practice from your parents, there is nothing special about you that is going to make things work out differently and in your favor.

    2. How flattering to know that I have at least one supporter! I certainly didn't during law school, when I couldn't even get interviews for relevant jobs. I finally found a job (other than my federal clerkship) long after graduation, but it too is likely to come to an end soon, because there isn't enough fucking work to be done. So I need all the support that I can get.


    This garbage plan has been in the works for a while. Back on June 2, 2013, the Bellingham Herald published a TTT opinion piece entitled “The stars align for a new law school in Tacoma.” Check out this bitter opening:

    “Since 1999, the South Sound has had a hole the shape of a law school in its higher education system.

    That’s when the University of Puget Sound shipped off its law school to Seattle University for a sum rumored to exceed thirty pieces of silver.

    But the long dry spell of legal scholarship could end in 2015, thanks to the efforts of community leaders who are working to create a new law program tailored for the needs of this area. The idea is to raise $2.25 million in local startup money to plant a stem of the University of Washington Law School on the campus of the University of Washington Tacoma.

    The local money would fund three years of staffing, after which the UW Law School would cover the paychecks itself.”

    Nice comparison, waterheads. Why don’t you jam 30 pieces of silver up your moronic ass? Scroll down to this pathetic conclusion from these imbeciles:

    “The United States might have more lawyers than it needs at the moment, but the South Sound does not.

    Prosecutors, state and local governments, law firms and companies are expected to face a shortage of legal talent in a few years. The Washington State Bar Association is packed with baby boomers on the eve of retirement.

    The stars are aligned for a law school to serve students with family and job connections to the South Sound.

    It’s been done before, successfully. And this time, it wouldn’t get sold up the freeway.”

    This is simply a rehashing of tired, old BS arguments in support of the law school pigs. It is the same drivel and garbage that the “legal education” con men have used for about a decade now. The nation CERTAINLY has a GLUT of lawyers, including unemployed and marginally employed ones. Is Tacoma some sort of geographic oddity? Perhaps, it is not able to siphon off enough Seattle attorneys – even though it is less than 35 miles away.

    Lastly, fossils with a law license and a decent practice – i.e. a steady base of paying clients – are not going to walk away from that money. This is a job that can be performed as long as the mind stays relatively strong. We are not talking about factory workers or professional athletes. Hell, we are dealing with SELFISH Baby Boomer swine. These cockroaches will continue to practice law until they are feeble minded. They don’t want to retire and live off of savings and the safety net. After all, they want to continue their current lifestyle. Furthermore, they don’t even care about their own grandchildren. They are not going to step aside so that younger lawyers and recent JDs can have a chance.

    1. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingApril 29, 2016 at 8:09 AM


      I mostly agree with you. However most older Boomer and Silent Generation attorneys I know have helped me out. Most of the elderly Boomers, I know, that are practicing, CAN'T retire. Or they married later in life (as professionals tend to do) and still have college age kids to support. Still other aging attorneys like to "stay in the game" and be sharp. Who the hell wants to sit at home and hear a wife yell about some bullshit that doesn't matter?

    2. Who knew that a "hole the shape of a law school in its higher education system" looks exactly the same as an arsehole? Who'd have thunk it?

  16. Great find, Nando.
    The article notes one of the faux excuses for building this vanity project is:
    "Prosecutors, state and local governments, law firms and companines are expected to face a shortage of legal talent in a few years."
    Well, it's been three years since the article was written-where's that shortage?

  17. We absolutely DO NOT have a need for another law school or lawyers in Seattle (or anywhere else). The market is flooded. I have a friend who graduated from a Midwest school #1 in her class and subsequently passed the OR, WA, and ID bar exams on her first try. She was law review and so on. No full time job offers yet. She is in her late 30s. WTF?????

    I work for a utility company in Washington. Last time there was a legal opening in our department we received 500+ applications. People even offered to clerk for free.

    I am so thankful for my non-legal job.

    1. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingApril 29, 2016 at 8:01 PM

      Midwest school? What, Cooley? John Marshall? Valpo? NIU, SIU? She passed the Oregon Bar. Great. Great. Maybe she can represent those Oregon wanker ranchers who occupied the Bird Sanctuary pro bono.

    2. The big obstacle is her age. I was older than she when I went to law school, where I kicked everyone's ass six ways to Sunday, yet I couldn't find work—and age-based discrimination was the reason. Near the end of third year, the dean urged me not to try to become a lawyer, as I'd never find work at my age.

      The "Midwest school" will also be an obstacle, unless it happens to be Michigan or Chicago. But her age is going to keep her out of the legal profession. She'll be lucky to find a poxy little job in a tiny, unstable firm.


    Back on March 13, 2014, JDU commenters recognized that a new law school in Tacoma, Washington was a terrible idea. User “fmllawyer” started a thread labeled “State budget includes money for Tacoma law school.” Read the original post, as well as the responses:

    fmllawyer (Mar 13, 2014 - 7:43 pm)

    My. God. No. Just no. Why should taxpayer funds be spent on this excrement?


    The Legislature's budget compromise includes seed money for a Tacoma campus of the University of Washington Law School.

    State lawmakers unveiled their supplemental budget deal Thursday and were getting ready to take votes on it before adjourning their 2014 session at midnight. The budget proposal has bipartisan support and cannot be amended.

    Among the many details in the 291-page document: The House accepted the Senate's call for $400,000 for the University of Washington-Tacoma to develop a law school. UW has distanced itself from the proposal but a group of civic boosters are trying to raise from private donors the $2.25 million they say would be needed.

    "They should not (use the state money) until they actually get the private money," said Rep. Ross Hunter, the lead budget writer for majority House Democrats, "and at that point they want to actually create a self-sustaining law school there. I feel that's an entirely reasonable thing to do."

    The South Sound has lacked a legal education program since Seattle University bought the University of Puget Sound law school and moved it from Tacoma to Seattle in 1999. The new proposal is for a campus with five instructors teaching evening classes to a first class of just 30 students.

    Sen. Steve O'Ban, R-Tacoma and a member of the Senate majority, pushed for the funding. "Establishing a law school at UW-Tacoma will do more than just provide local students with more opportunities to follow their dreams," he said in a statement. "It also has the added benefit of encouraging business development and job growth in the greater south Puget Sound region. I’m proud to support this budget and I’m excited about bringing a law school back to Tacoma."

    The plan had bipartisan support among Pierce County's delegation to the Legislature.

    "It's a step toward getting us there," Sen. Jeannie Darneille, D-Tacoma, said of the money, "and I think for being the first year we talked about it, it's not a bad outcome."

    Read more here:
    propita (Mar 13, 2014 - 7:54 pm)

    Yeah, cause we should open yet another law school--on the taxpayer’s dime, no less. Someone must want their unemployed attorney kid to have a job as a law school prof.

    1. They plan to open a law school with only 30 students?

      Three years ago, Indiana Tech planned to open with 100 students. It drew fewer than 30, of whom only 21 are graduating (in less than two weeks).

      How is this toilet-to-be in Tacoma going to get accreditation? Indiana Tech had to hire remedial instructors and a career counselor. How the hell could an even tinier shithole afford to do that?


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