Saturday, June 11, 2016

Law School Pigs Recently Roasted Beyond Recognition by Disillusioned Attorneys


http://www.startribune.com/law-school-fundraising-solicitations-will-be-bitterly-denied/382161011/

Epic Rant: On June 7, 2016, the Minneapolis Star Tribune published an op-ed from lawyer Bob Larsen, under the header “Law school fundraising: Solicitations will be bitterly denied.” Enjoy this opening screed:

“To my greedy law school:

No. Stop asking. I’m not going to give you any money. Ever. So you can stop sending those fundraising letters every few months, begging for more of my hard-earned cash.

I’m not blaming you for the collapse of the legal job market (although, one would think it behooves law schools to keep a close eye on the number of new lawyers vs. the number of new associate positions). I’m blaming you because you lied to us. You reported employment statistics — even back in 2007, when things were decidedly rosier — that led prospective students to believe that a huge portion of your graduates walked out of your hallowed halls and right into lucrative associate positions at fancy law firms. The reality, as we now know, is that you were counting everyone with any kind of job at all — from the guy working just a few hours per week at the 7-Eleven to the girl who took your perennial temporary position in the student affairs office — as employed, for the purposes of bragging about postgraduation employment. 

Go ahead — continue shifting that blame to the victims of your dissembling and empty promises. It’s our fault that we took your claims at face value and didn’t do our own research (although that conflicts with what I learned about the law in this area). It’s our fault that we took on monumental debt loads to pay your inflated tuition prices (we’ll just ignore the fact that you scheduled classes for the cohorts in such a way that it was virtually impossible to hold a job while in school). It’s our fault that we listened while your professors reassured and cajoled and promised everything short of a bona fide job offer in order to keep us from dropping out when so many of us were reconsidering in the face of massive layoffs in the legal field. 

I truly, deeply regret attending law school. Full of youthful optimism, I tried to better my life through education, and was slapped down hard. Despite assurances to the contrary, the things I learned haven’t helped me in the slightest.” [Emphasis mine]

This man sandblasted his commode. Still want to take the law school plunge, moron?!?! Now, scroll down to his conclusion:

“But worst of all is the debt. We’re not talking the paltry $25,000 that the average undergrad is saddled with nowadays. We’re talking $100,000 or more — $170,000, in my case, despite a 50 percent scholarship that seemed generous at the time. That level of debt demands a monthly payment that’s twice what my mortgage is. That’s money that I could be using to provide for my retirement. For my kids’ college. For any of the myriad expenses that life throws at you. But instead, I’m shouldering the crushing weight of astronomical student debt, stuck in debt slavery, the penalty for thinking that maybe, just maybe, education was the ticket to an elite career. 

It feels like a grave insult every time you request a donation. At every turn, you’ve done me a disservice. You’ve taken so much from me, and given precious little. My life is worse for having known you. I have paid and will continue to pay for that mistake. But you don’t care; you’re just a bloated glutton, constantly demanding more.

So, in light of that, I’m sure you’ll understand when I say, “Go to hell, you parasite.” [Emphasis mine]

He pulls no punches. This is how you call out the cockroaches. Hopefully, this will cause some lemmings to reconsider their idiotic decision to apply to, and enroll in, law school.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/you-must-go-law-school-steven-waechter

More Criticism: On June 3, 2016, Steven Waechter wrote an article entitled “If You MUST Go to Law School…” After pointing out that LSAT scores and first year grades matter more than anything else, the author drop this knowledge:

“Your law degree isn’t going to stop child abuse, save the orphans, heal broken families, save the dolphins, get people raises, or increase the wealth and prosperity of the nation. Your law degree will leave you in serious debt, and badly in need of a paying job. If it is a job in the law, it will be a job that involves paperwork or bureaucracies. Nearly half of graduates don’t get jobs in the law at all.

Oh, and you will not be able to help all the “poor and working-class Americans who can’t afford a lawyer” that law school deans talk about all the time. They can’t afford legal services. They. Can’t. Afford. Lawyers. When you graduate from law school with six-figure student loan debt on top of the normal costs of life, you will not be able to work for free. Put it together, genius.

Law Is a Business 

Law is a service industry; it provides legal services to those who can pay for them. Your decision to attend law school needs to be approached in a business-like manner as well. It is an extremely expensive and time-consuming venture whose outcome is not guaranteed.

The costs and the benefits need to be weighed carefully, and the risks of failure and disaster are present and need to be accounted for along with things like tuition. Those costs can and should be minimized, like in any other investment. If the costs outweigh the likely benefits, you should consider staying away from law school. 

More romantic people than I will tell you that law is a “calling,” and that it isn’t just about the money. Ask these people to contribute money for your tuition. Yes, we need lawyers. We may not need you as a lawyer. Of 1.5 million law school graduates, only about half actually practice law for a living, and it isn’t because of a lack of “calling.” It is because of a lack of “money.” The business of law is just as susceptible to supply-and-demand as any other market. Supply now outstrips demand, and the business of law is financially strapped as a result.” [Emphasis mine]

Did that penetrate your tiny brain, prospetive law student/rape victim?!?!

Conclusion: In the final analysis, the law school swine DO NOT GIVE ONE GODDAMN ABOUT YOU, the student or recent graduate. The bitches and hags simply need to get their grubby hands on federal student loan money. Since you have a pulse, and an LSAT score above 143, you are their meal ticket. You are nothing more than a student loan conduit. What happens to you upon graduation is not the pigs’ concern. They got paid up front, in full.

55 comments:

  1. Excellent summation of it, based on the rants of both individuals. Now we just need even more people to speak up, especially like this.

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  2. This post should be sent to all who are considering law school.

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  3. If you're not going to HYS or a top 20 school on close to full scholarship, then you're just wasting your time and taking on a bunch of debt for no reason.

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  4. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingJune 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM

    Not to mention that many of us attorneys have taken second, non-legal related jobs to make ends meet. I am not a newbie either. I am an experienced, seasoned practitioner... I work hard, network and hustle. The problem is that all 1.8 million lawyers are doing the same in a pie that's grown considerably smaller.

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  5. I like how when people are applying to law schools they are "intelligent, hard-working, ambitious individuals with a great future ahead of them and are investing in themselves".

    Then after they graduate unemployed they are "stupid, lazy, losers that don't want to work, are entitled, and should have done some real work".

    If the only difference is law school, then shouldn't something be said about these educators and the institution that can take such bright people and turn them into worthless losers?

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  6. If my élite law school has the gall to ask me for so much as a red cent, it will get an earful of profanity that would make a sailor blanch.

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    1. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingJune 11, 2016 at 7:45 PM

      Don't burn a bridge. Better off to send a fin. What if they can refer you to a LAW job!!!! Keep you eye on the ball....catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

      Delete
  7. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingJune 11, 2016 at 4:03 PM

    This is so not Kosher.

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  8. All educational institutions are able to feed at the bottomless trough of federal loans.

    Same thing with health care. Hospitals and doctors feed on the bottomless pit of Medicare, Medicaid, the new health care exchanges and widely available employer health plans.

    Bottom line, unless you are very rich, colleges, universities and hospitals are not the best place to give your donations to. They are taken care of by institutions far richer than their alumni and friends.

    I went to law school when there were many fewer lawyers. No, I would not have made that choice if the facts were readily available. Of course, the facts were not known before the days of the internet.

    The most negative factor for me was the pushing out of so many lawyers after I graduated and started practicing law. My elite law school has increased its class size by 40% and gorged on transfer students that pay full tuition. Many experienced honors graduates of the law school are unable to make a living. Some are living in relative poverty. US News should close the transfer loophole by including all new JD students in the admissions-related ratings of law schools, not just first years.

    The other negative factor for me is an up or out system that makes it very hard for experienced lawyers to stay in the game. In my practice area and geographic area, law firms that have full-time permanent positions that pay more than $60,000 a year will mostly not consider a lawyer with more than 10 or 12 years of experience for a job. That type of experience cap should not be lawful because there are not enough other jobs for experienced lawyers to go to. As the legal services head at my elite law firm where I worked for many years says, not everyone is going to get a job when they [are forced to] leave the firm. Few older lawyers are allowed to stay at that and all other high paying law firm lawyer jobs, and most who can stay at older ages are overwhelmingly white male.

    That is a disgrace, where elite law schools rely on law firm jobs that mostly do not enable a graduate to work for a career because of the experience caps and disparate impact age, race and sex discrimination.

    One solution is to put an 80% placement rule in full time permanent jobs requiring a JD, excluding law school funded jobs, in place, before allowing federal loans to attend that law school.

    Another solution is for the federal government to become more proactive on disparate impact age and dual discrimination in the legal profession. It would be a good start to add age to the proposed revisions to EEO-1s. With that change, virtually every large law firm in America would flunk age discrimination 101, not to mention dual discrimination based on age, race and/or sex.

    A profession more like medicine, where 96% of those taking the plunge in US allopathic medical schools have the ability to work for a full career should be the goal.

    The system of creating a million structurally unemployed law graduates at the incredible expense of hard-working US taxpayers who are paying for the failed law school loans does not work. The goal of the federal government should be a smaller, leaner legal profession, but once you get in, you should have an excellent chance of a job until you at least hit Social Security retirement age, age 66 or 67, or maybe even age 70, the age at which an American can get unreduced Social Security benefits.

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  9. A really stupid idea to send fundraising letters to recent graduates with debt and no legal job. The schools need to identify successful alums and solicit donations from them only. And listen to them. They want their alma mater to be successful too - meaning only take in students smart enough to succeed, and in low enough numbers that all will have a good chance at finding legal employment. Alumni interests and the interests of the law professoriate should be aligned, not at odds with each other. We have to wandered so far from the traditional education model where alumni gifts funded much of the schools' costs, tuition was not 95% of the budget, and the schools focussed on the needs of students as future alumni whose support the schools would depend on in the future. Schools need to take better care of their alumni.

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  10. Here's a comment from the "Comments" section. The author (Larson) and the commentor both appear to have STEM backgrounds. In other words: Law School, you Did It Again! They dimmed 2 Brighter Lights.

    Both individuals could've done so much more at that vital crossroads of their lives but got bitch-slapped (sucker-punched is probably a better phrase for it..) by the false promises of the law schools. Now, here's the comment:

    ------------------------------

    Having gone to law school with the author, with a similar STEM undergrad background, similar job expectations, and similar debt I agree about the donation requests. I roll my eyes every time I receive a donation envelope. Having received no scholarship money, I have paid more than my fair share to the school and have no intention of handing them a cent and I would not want my money used to encourage other students to go to law school (the market bears what the market bears and most endowment money just allows higher tuition to line the school’s pockets). However, I do not regret going to law school and I think at the end of my career it will at least be break even from a financial standpoint. Even in my law school application essay I stated that I had no desire to be a traditional lawyer. I was more interested in the intersection of science and law. And about half way through law school it became pretty apparent that traditional legal jobs would be few and far between and that it would be better to focus on non-traditional legal jobs. There were at least a few large highly regulated companies in MN that were taking advantage of the lull in the legal field, especially people with technical backgrounds. I took a job with one of them out of law school and have been there ever since. They have been very supportive and allowed me to study/take/pass the bar, pay for a master’s program in the field, and pay for CLEs that are related to my role. I probably spent the first year after law school still trying to find that legal job I had hoped for, but even the jobs I sought paid less than the non-legal job I had. At this point I am happy where I am, and although I could have taken a different route to the same position I think my legal background helped open doors to start my career. But I still wouldn't give a law school a cent.

    -------------------------------

    Law school added NO value, I would argue, to either and in fact diminished their prospects.

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    1. Don't forget to read all the comments there. As I pointed out over at the Law School Truth Center blog, there are some comments by truly oblivious people who are trying to counter with "success stories" (with those being people who went to law school decades ago before the lawyer glut and the dismal job prospects). It seems like the clueless old people from another time are at it again!

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    2. Clueless and the usual "blame the victim" mentality I thought also.

      College to law school. 7 years. $300k Not sure where people are coming up with $25k for undergrad.. Not today..

      I say this: It's 2016. The WSJ article hit 2007. The internet is matured beyond discussion forums to now full sites and blogs, etc.

      There's no excusing some Lemming going today other than being young, naive, and misled by people looking to line their own pockets (law schools and colleges) and perhaps the greatest factor; clueless parents who believe in the "more is better" education myth.

      I say that a kid at 22 who's never worked more than a year, perhaps, after college is still dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to money and their view of the world, i.e. that it is a fair place that values people and ideas when in reality it's a completely unfair place that values money, connections, and social standing above everything else by far.

      A world full of two main types: Predators and the sheep they lovingly lead to the slaughter.

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    3. Access to law school should require some experience doing something other than attending school. I'd require applicants to demonstrate five years of working experience.

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    4. Similarly, teaching at a law school should require some real legal experience other than just attending law school.

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    5. Oh yes, I forgot the "blame the victim" mentality, thanks for pointing that out too.

      The WSJ article might have hit in 2007, but don't forget the NYT article from 2011. So if we were to use the publication dates of those articles as cut-off dates... then I'd say be wary of anyone who matriculated in 2012 onward (meaning, Class of 2015 and those after that).

      And as for those younger folks attending and graduating from law school nowadays... I wouldn't bash all of them just because of that. We don't know how many of them were pressured into going by well-meaning but foolish families, or were part of the minorities which the law school cartel is praying upon. Still, if you absolutely must mock and laugh at any lemmings, then I say go with those who have declared their stupidity to the world (like those featured on Law School Lemmings).

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    6. I agree. And I didn't mean it to come off so much as that. To your point (and this happened to me so yeah, I was there, lol..) parents pressure their kids into stupid things without realizing what signed those disbursement papers on the dotted line really means to their long-term well-being.

      The Education Industry has a huge monetary interest in keeping people in the System for as long as it can and so it indoctrinates them constantly about "the value of education".

      Fine.

      That's fine, I suppose. Except that at the back end the jobs required to support the debt DO NOT EXIST and WILL NOT EXIST.

      And no one really cares..

      Why?

      They've all been paid off, up front.

      Again to your point, people who are minorities are being pressured heavily. Someone who was the first to get a college degree in their family, etc. Other vulnerable groups.

      Okay, but then you have the idiots who have Heard the Word on the Scam and steadfastly refuse to believe it - until they graduate.

      My attitude towards those types is as you read it and I think, amazingly somehow, there's still a sizeable contingent of that crowd out there that make up today's law school grads.

      However, going back to the indoctrination / pressure theories... Society is out to cannibalize the young today so my message is also: Think for yourself and don't trust much of what your educators, guidance counselors, and perhaps parents are saying at face value. The world has changed in terms of jobs for young people today and job security. Best to not leave the starting blocks with $300K of debt before you even get a job..

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    7. @Anon 9:09- Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with all of that and everything you've said. (Whoops, sorry I'm only noting this half a year later...)

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  11. Actually, 143 would be a high score at some law skules. It certainly isn't the minimum, although just a few years ago it would have been considered poor even at Cooley.

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  12. There's been articles (not just blog entries) online about law school being a shitty investment since 2009 or earlier. It's now 2016. So there's no excuse for attending one of these shitholes now.

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    1. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingJune 12, 2016 at 6:15 PM

      1. Newbies read that new "Associates" in NYC and LA are ranking in $180K. 2. Law Deans tell them that student loan debt is "bullshit" because of IBR and forgiveness. 3. It's better than being a Retail Monkey or sitting in a cube taking diabetes supply orders. 4. There is a tremendous cultural mystique to being a LAWYER. Even that turd Team AAMPLE poster writes about "The Practice."

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    2. Captain:

      The tone of your email is out of line. We should support each other as we come together to identify the issue, explore reasonable solutions to the problem.

      More lawyers need to speak up, instead of standing in the shadows of their bad decisions to invest huge sums of money for an education that provides a risky / poor ROI.

      Make no mistake, these law student drank the Kool-Aid, in hopes of a better future. Lets make sure that next batch of law students, make out better, thanks, to our dedicated effort to put the word out!!!

      Team AMMPLE, don't let these Num N*ts deter you. Keep shining the light. :-)

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    3. So you can't even spell the program you're shilling?
      Team AMMPLE9(sic): unable to construct a logic sentence since 2016.

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  13. Open question for everyone here: What is the absolute worst experience which you ever had with your school's Career Services Office? (And not just law school, but undergrad just about any school you ever attended?) I bet none of them ever shouted something at you over the telephone.
    So, were they nasty and hostile too, or just plain incompetent and unhelpful?

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    1. At my first meeting with the "Career" "Services" Office, in the middle of my first year of law school, I asked the director about finding a job for the summer. Response: "You don't need a job! Spend your summer vacation traveling around France!"

      She thought that I wanted a job for the sake of my résumé. She did not understand that I, unlike most of the other students, needed money.

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    2. They didn't return my telephone calls. I left three messages...told them that I was an law school alum and desperate for advice. It was during the height of the great recession and folks who owed me fees, filed BK.

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    3. Actually my law school Career Services Office was all of the above-nasty, hostile, incompetent and unhelpful. They made it clear they were only interested in the top 10% or so, period.
      True story: Way back when if a job were posted, interested applicants would put their resumes in a cabinet which looked like an overgrown card catalogue(my guess is that I'm so old that people will have to google that).
      Anyway, ALL the job posting made clear that only 10% and law review were going to be considered. I was neither, but figured that since I paid tuition, I would apply to any job posted, and I did. After a few weeks the complaints must have coming rolling in, because the dean of career services grabbed me by the arm one day as I was walking to class, and right there told me that I didn't' meet the criteria and was "forbidden" from applying for these jobs. Please note that there were NEVER any jobs listed for dolts like myself, indifferent students fumbling somewhere in the middle of the class(ok, maybe in the bottom 50%-but I preferred to think I made the top 90% possible..). Anyway, the good dean was like life in the 13th century-nasty, short, and brutish, a politico who got the job through connections and had previously been-I kid you not-a real estate agent, and had a BA from who knows where and no law degree.
      Anyway, as my fellow students walked around us, I yanked my arm free and muttered something sophisticated along the lines of "ok".
      But after a few days I thought-hey, I'm still paying so I'm going to keep applying-what are they going to do, expel me?
      So I did-I applied for every job posted-even patent jobs(with my trusty BA in English). This incident with the good dean occurred in September of 2L, and we spent the next two years glaring at each other. I must have glared well, as the good dean never grabbed my arm-or spoke to me-again.
      And yes, as a licensed attorney for over 30 years, I get phone calls and letters from this wonderful school asking for money.
      Not.One.Penny.

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    4. http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2016/06/law-grad-to-his-greedy-law-school-go-to-hell-you-parasite.html

      On June 9, 2016, Paul Caron covered this development in an entry labeled “Law Grad Responds To Fundraising Appeals From 'Greedy' Law School: 'Go To Hell, You Parasite.'” Check out these comments:

      “On the positive side, perhaps attending law school trained this person to write a persuasive yet scathing argument.

      Posted by: William J Thomas | Jun 9, 2016 6:51:11 PM

      Bottom line,

      (As the large decline in applications has shown), law schools are becoming more and more widely known as sewers of deceit when it comes to financial matters.

      It is a very well earned reputation and sooner or later one of the lawsuits will stick and completely destroy one (or more) of the schools.

      Then the real bloodletting will begin.

      To me, the most interesting aspect is why some more creative causes of action haven't been invoked against these (at best) borderline fraudulent institutions - students are not the only ones whole have been financially betrayed for decades.

      Federal and state governments (see taxpayers) have been fed false/misleading/incorrect information as well - and there are a raft of regulations about those sorts of things...

      Posted by: cas127 | Jun 9, 2016 7:56:55 PM

      When Law Prawfs and Deans respond to practitioner posts about the state of the legal profession and we tell them the FACTS as we know them, the resort to attacking us as WHINERS. Here is my solution: Bring your salaries and compensation down to the IRS median for a Solo Attorney which is fifty percent of the profession.

      Posted by: Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance King | Jun 10, 2016 1:15:21 PM

      I just realized something. The college I attended in the late 1960s, when tuition and the cost of living was low, is currently rolling in money donated my generation of graduates.

      What's going to happen when the current generation of students nears retirement? They've paid far more for their college education and acquired large debts that may take twenty years or more to pay off. With but a few exceptions, the job market they're entering is dismal.

      In about forty years or so when the university comes knocking for alumni donations will they be as generous? Somehow, I think not.

      Universities, backed by foolish federal loans, have seriously oversold themselves. They may come to regret that.

      Posted by: Michael W. Perry | Jun 10, 2016 4:52:16 PM”

      Of course, mental midgets and "special snowflakes" will continue to take the plunge. Some morons never learn.

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    5. Oh, I was in the top 10%—even the top 10% of the top 10%. I also edited the flagship law review. But the "Career" "Services" Office wouldn't give me the time of day. Nor would any employer. The dean, however, called me in and urged me not to bother to become a lawyer, as I was unlikely to find work at my age. And he was right.

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    6. Under grad - Career services department = lazy, good for nothing university staff sitting around.
      Not helpful at ALL! I had to find my first job all by myself !! (I had connections)


      Summer before law school---
      Very helpful with the AAMPLE process, made sure I was taken care of. Secured part time work

      Exiting Law School--
      Lazy law school support staff. I was not even aloud to attend "OCI". I paid as much as everyone else ... this was not fare.

      Luckily

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    7. The career services employees at my TT dump were deceptive. When I applied to law school in the early 2000s, I foolishly believed everything the schools said about employment prospects. Before I enrolled in my TT dump, I was invited to attend an event for admitted students. I should have been suspicious when the dean of the law sewer and the dean of career services spent a lot of time talking about jobs. They emphatically declared that everyone gets a job and bragged that even the student ranked last in the class gets a job. They proclaimed that the average graduate working in private practice made over $90,000. They bragged about all of the employers that interviewed on campus, ranging from big law firms to the federal government. I remember someone asking the deans, “I want to work in public interest law. How I am going to repay over $100,000 in student loans doing public interest work.” With a straight face, the dean of career services said, “after graduating you should take a private practice job first, where you make on average over $90,000. Once you repay your loans you can then move into public interest work.”

      During the fall of my second year at my TT dump, I struck out at OCI despite having good grades and law review. Not a single big law firm or government agency gave me a call back interview. My friend also struck out. We had even practiced interviewing at the career services office before OCI. My friend called one firm to find out how he could have performed better at the interview. But the firm told him his interview went great, they just decided to extend call back interviews to other law students (who didn’t attend low ranked toilet law schools).

      One of the employees of the career services office told me not to worry. She told me that most students do not land jobs through OCI. Funny how the deans left that part out when I was considering the TToilet. I was advised to blast resumes, network, and apply to jobs posted by the career services office.

      During my third year of law school, I listened to the career services office and continued to blast resumes and apply to jobs. After I graduated jobless, I attended a legal job fair. It was very embarrassing at the time, but funny in retrospect because some of the law firms refused to even accept my resume. I received dirty looks and was flat out told I could not work at their firm. Some of the firms were nice enough to feign interest in me and accept my resume. I networked through alumni of my undergraduate college and family friends. But that went nowhere too. Eventually I did receive a few job interviews. I interviewed at 4 government jobs and one shit law firm. I was rejected by all 5 organizations. The law school swine over the years have tried to disparage unemployed grads as “entitled.” They have claimed grads are turning down lower paying jobs. I never turned down a job offer.

      The last time I ever spoke with my career services office, I had a confrontation with them. I accused the school of lying about the job prospects of graduates. The dean of the career services office feigned compassion at my situation and told me many students were struggling to find jobs. The dean claimed there was a downturn in the legal market. The dean claimed that even students at NYU were struggling to find jobs. This was the mid-2000s, a time when the economy was booming and toilet law schools were proclaiming they had 99% employment rates with average salaries of about $100,000. Finally, the dean told me there were jobs out there and all I had to do was keep applying. I knew this dean was a lying piece of crap. The dean probably had a dozen rehearsed speeches depending on who the audience was. There was the speech for prospective students, the speech for students when they struck out at OCI, and the speech for unemployed graduates. I rejoiced a few years later when I found out that dean had been fired for unethical conduct (of course it was unrelated to publishing fraudulent employment data).

      E-4 Mafia

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    8. Hey Old Guy,
      The Dean said you not to bother to become a lawyer as you were unlikely to find work at your age?
      DID HE TELL YOU THIS BEFORE OR AFTER YOU PAID HIM 3 YEARS' WORTH OF TUITION?

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    9. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingJune 13, 2016 at 2:13 PM

      I can tell immediately that you are an AAMPLE grad from a correspondence school. It was not FARE that you didn't do OCI's? You mean fair. I guess even Infilaw has standards....good for them----they wouldn't let you interview and it was not FARE!!! Were you applying to be a bus driver? They collect a fare.

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    10. They were just incompetent.

      The people who worked at my law school's career services office were actually quite nice and friendly. One lady even shared some recipes with me. However, when it came to actual substance, they weren't able to help anyone (unless you were invited for OCI).

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    11. To Anonymous at 7:12 PM: Your story sounds very familiar; didn't you tell us this some months ago on another blog post here? The one about the stupid dean getting all pissy because you dared apply to those jobs anyway? I commented on it back then too. Still, thanks for sharing it again: It's definitely worth reading, and could be used to dissuade any potential law school victims from going and taking the plunge.

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    12. I did; since I'm a lazy typist, the details are even better than the outline shared. Suffice to say that it was the highlight-or lowlight-of my law school experience, and proof that the TTTs didn't care even back in the 80s. If you weren't a the top of the class, career services didn't want to see you or hear from you. My total experience was very similar to E-4 Mafia's as noted above; I too went to a legal job fair where many of the participants refused to take a resume from me. I did all the stuff-networked, blasted out dozens and dozens of resumes(and this was in the old days-so spent money I didn't have on postage and decent looking stationery), etc, to no effect: I graduated from LS with no job and no real prospects.

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    13. The dean told me that in the middle of my sixth semester.

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    14. After my 1L year I was in the bottom 25% of my class and my career service head actually chastised me for submitting applications for OCI. She literally said "you are making Temple look bad". Fast forward 10 years and I am responsible for my regional firm's summer associate program. I pulled myself up through the muck no thanks to Temple. Now every time I get a call from Temple I remind them of their statement (the Dean actually called me to apologize last year but it was too late).

      Long story short, if you are not in the top 5% you might as well be invisible.

      Delete
    15. Hey again Old Guy!
      After that last check cleared! Did you ask for your money back?

      Delete
  14. I don’t know how I missed this story a few months ago.

    https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2016/01/ftc-brings-enforcement-action-against-devry-university

    The FTC filed suit against DeVry “University” alleging the school’s advertisements deceived consumers about the likelihood that students would find jobs in their fields of study. The school also advertised that their students earn more than those graduating with bachelor’s degrees from other colleges and universities.

    DeVry claimed that 90% of their graduates actively seeking employment landed jobs in their field within six months of graduation.

    The FTC suit alleges that DeVry counted numerous graduates as working “in their field” when they were not. For example, a graduate who majored in business administration with a specialization in health services management was actually working as a server at a restaurant. Another graduate who majored in business administration was actually working as a car salesman. There were many graduates with majors in management that worked in unrelated positions. For example, one graduate worked as a mail carrier and another worked as a driver delivering rain gutters for a construction company.

    DeVry also counted graduates returning to jobs they held prior to attending DeVry as landing a job in their field of study. In addition, DeVry excluded graduates from their count, classifying them as not actively seeking employment, when they were in fact actively seeking employment. For instance, a graduate that viewed more than 175 job openings in DeVry’s database, interviewed for 6 jobs, and repeatedly emailed the career services office was classified as not actively seeking employment.

    Does any of that sound familiar?

    Students that attend DeVry must not be “sophisticated consumers” capable of sifting through data like the victims of the ABA accredited trash heaps. Attending a low ranked for-profit university must not be a “red flag to a reasonable consumer” like attending a TTT law school. Or maybe the problem is that the president of DeVry “University” hasn’t explained to the FTC that this was just a temporary setback due to the great recession. You have to look at where these graduates will be in 10 years, not 6 months after graduation. The president needs to explain that a college degree confers an extra million dollars in life time earnings!

    Members of Congress are even calling for relief for students and veterans that were “defrauded” by DeVry. They have asked the Department of Education to forgive the loans of students who were defrauded by DeVry. They have also asked the VA to investigate the use of GI Bill benefits at DeVry.

    Go ahead lemming, ignore Bob Larsen’s op-ed piece above and take the law school plunge. The courts, FTC, and members of Congress will be waiting to help you out when you graduate unemployed with $150,000+ in debt.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hm, yes, good points... As I pointed out elsewhere not too long ago, there seems to be a hypocritical double standard when it comes to this situation...
      If you got swindled by any of these for-profit colleges (i.e. Corinthian Colleges), then the general public will sympathize with you, and you'll even get elected representatives demanded that your debt be forgiven.
      But if you went to law school, well... The general public will immediately assume that you only went there because you're a greedy parasite, that you got what you deserved, and will insist that you somehow pay back your loans (you lazy entitled loser deadbeat!) while refusing to hire you with that scarlet JD, let alone do anything else to help you.

      And yet, it's THE EXACT SAME THING: Greedy schools with incompetent professors taking advantage of desperate and ignorant students for the federal student loan money, all for the empty promise of good jobs which don't actually exist. But the public's perception about lawyers and law school students somehow seems to make the difference here.

      Delete
    2. The only post-secondary institution that visited my high school was DeVry. The entire student body was assembled for the presentation.

      Back then, DeVry was strictly a vo-tech: all printing and welding, no business administration or management.

      Delete
  15. Mike Rowe hits the nail on the head ....

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-10/mike-rowe-gives-advice-students-never-follow-your-passion

    ReplyDelete
  16. Old Guy,
    I had a similar experience. My pedigree is not as good as yours, but I had a former career as an engineer with an undergraduate degree in reasonable demand. I thought there would be no problem getting a patent law job.
    Wrong.

    What I didn't know is that entry level law firm hiring has a huge amount of age discrimination. I was 36. That's about 5 years too old.
    And there is very little about this on the Internet. So you could be an ambitious engineer in their late 20s or early 30s and thinking that law school is a good option. It isn't. Age is an insurmountable barrier unless you have a personal in.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm sorry, but not a bit surprised, to hear of your experience, 11:15. Indeed, you were a good five or six years too old to get a job in law.

      I discuss my résumé not to boast but to illustrate as starkly as I can the reality of age-based discrimination in the legal profession. I really couldn't have done better academically or otherwise, yet the gates of the profession were closed to me.

      Delete
    2. @Old Guy -- don't feel too bad!

      I know younger people with stellar resumes that didn't do all that well. In addition to age discrimination, there is quite a bit of "class" discrimination. You need the right connections or the right look to survive in law.

      Honestly, sometimes it feels that being a successful lawyer requires work experience as a model for Vogue or GQ magazine.

      Delete
    3. Age in this case is a proxy for class. Rich people don't go to law school in their forties.

      Delete
  17. Do some digging and see how many of your professors have actually been lawyers for more than three or four years. It won't make any sense.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Here is another spot on portion from Waechter's article:

    "The Career Development Office is Not Your Friend

    Unless you are in the top 10 percent or so of your class, the Career Office will be worthless. They might be worse than worthless, actually. Never volunteer information to them about jobs you’re looking into, unless you want everyone on the “Top Students” email list to know about it by the end of the day.

    The school will send you a survey 10 months after graduating. This is mandated by the ABA and meant to determine your employment status. After you submit that form, you are officially dead to the CDO staff. The alumni development staff - the beggars for donations - are a different story."

    I remember another Third Tier Drake student mentioning that "Unless you are in the top 10% of the class, CDO couldn't care less about you. They are too busy helping the top students – the ones who don’t really need the help – find good jobs." Thankfully for him, things worked out in the end. His father was a physician or surgeon in another state - and that at least helped him avoid ridiculous sums of student debt. Anyway, for those not in the top decile of the class, the "Career Development" clowns would provide meaningless Power Point slides and handouts such as "Non-law jobs you can do with a law degree!"

    Regarding Waechter's analysis about the surveys, he is correct: you are essentially dead to the dolts, once you complete that form. I specifically recall the two members of the CDO staff frantically calling, emailing and approaching graduating students in person to find out about their job prospects - after not giving one damn about them for the previous five or six semesters.

    Hell, Carole Tillotson - then and current associate director of "career development" - told me to my face that the office would do everything they could to help me find a job after graduation. I emailed them several times and even called them a few times, to take them up on the offer - even though I know it was an empty promise and meaningless gesture. Actions speak louder than words.

    http://www.law.drake.edu/careers/?pageID=contactUs

    I applied to non-law positions on my own, and I looked for legal jobs on Simplicity. As was the case earlier, most of the positions required 3-5 years of experience as a licensed attorney. That tool was less than helpful to those who are graduating from law school.

    http://www.businessrecord.com/PrintArticle.aspx?aid=42857&uid=150ece60-d364-4352-be8b-11ea024cefad

    Here is a funny quote from then-director of “career development” at Third Tier Drake, in an undated but old piece:

    "A lot of graduates are looking for other opportunities outside the traditional route of practicing in a law firm, said Trisha Fillbach, director of career development at Drake University Law School. “Students are seeking public interest positions, working for legal aid organizations and non-profits, as well as serving as judicial clerks or assuming government positions doing public policy work. In addition, a fair number seek alternative careers outside the practice of law.”

    People seek those jobs, because there are not enough lawyer jobs to go around, genius! It’s the same as ending up with a a nice young lady or even a plain Jane, because the most popular or prettiest girl at the prom doesn’t want to dance with your ass. You simply move along to what is available and decent.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Students are seeking public interest positions, working for legal aid organizations and non-profits, as well as serving as judicial clerks or assuming government positions doing public policy work."

      Hold on!! These jobs are hard as hell to get. You either need connections, or be an "elite" student.

      On top of that, they don't pay enough to cover most of your expenses. So even though you have a "coveted" job, you are still depending on your parents or working retail to support yourself. Worse of all, there is still no guarantee of a sustainable career in law.

      Delete
  19. Law is not only an elitist field but not a bit shy about its ageism either. The firms, all of them (unless you're bringing in portable work)want kids who can withstand the stresses and horrible lifestyle that goes along with this putrid field.

    Typically a more mature person is not going to be able to stand for some of the shenanigans these crappy clients will pull; the young person will instead stress and try to pleaase these pathetic losers. Though there are exceptions to every rule, that's the perception of these evil firms.

    ReplyDelete
  20. No, most law firms have class year caps on who they will hire for lawyer jobs. A very small group of lawyers can move with more than 6 years experience, and it gets smaller with each year a class is out of law school. Most lawyers will not get hired by a mid-sized or large law firm after age 40.

    Class year hiring, combined with up or out policies, makes being a lawyer from a top law school very risky. and often a disaster after age 45 or so. You likely cannot find full-time, permanent work as a lawyer at that age, and you likely cannot keep a job you got as a younger lawyer.

    Get a law degree from Columbia, Penn, NYU, Chicago, and even Harvard or Yale, and you probably get to use it for a few years. After that, your $250,000 degree likely has no economic value. You will be unemployed or underemployed in many cases. Being a good lawyer, or a great lawyer is irrelevant. There are just too many lawyers and too little work for them.

    Paul Campos recently called the law firm jobs lawyers get from these schools "glorified temp jobs".

    ReplyDelete
  21. Paul Campos says:
    June 8, 2016 at 6:27 pm
    This is a very important point. More than ever, Big Law is a glorified temp job with better and worse exit options. Average associate tenure in NYC is probably four years, and very few people last seven years — usually not because they get “the talk,” but because they literally can’t stand it any more.

    And my $2,000 monthly loan payment estimate was therefore really unrealistic in that content.

    ReplyDelete
  22. http://www.startribune.com/law-school-fundraising-solicitations-will-be-bitterly-denied/382161011/

    Go to the Comments section of Mr. Larsen’s piece, when you have a moment. Courtesy of “dnight11” – on June 8, 2016 9:46 pm:

    “There is a general fiction that education is some kind of magic bullet. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just because you get an education is no guarantee that a job is waiting at the end. Or that the imagined job is waiting at the end. The conspiracy that makes this so bad is that it is so easy to acquire debt in pursuit of that education. And it is precisely the easy acquisition of debt that keeps secondary teachers employed. It is a vicious cycle perpetrated by elected officials that assume indiscriminate dollars thrown at education for educations sake will result in a higher standard of living which doesn't always pan out. As well stated by Mr. Larson.”

    On June 8, 2016 at 7:48 am, “the lone ranger” wrote the following:

    “We have way too many law schools. The reason we have so many is that they are very profitable. Law schools don't need labs and such that required for science and engineering.

    The truth is we also have way too many colleges and universities. Mr. Market will take care of both of these problems. Something that cannot go on forever will not go on forever. But the crash in higher education is going to get very ugly.”

    Make sure to read these two ripostes to some stupid cunt using the handle “DonnaFromEgan”:

    First, “bradinstpaul” from June 8, 2016 9:30 pm:

    “@DonnaFromEgan it was a different, less flooded market for most of the lawyers held up as mentors, folks who started 20 or more years ago, and tuition didn't run six figures.”

    Then, “mlhoganjr” blasted this bitch in the throat, with this post from June 9, 2016 at 8:42 am:

    “@DonnaFromEgan Interesting point. And how much did those esteemed alumni pay in tuition way back when? And what years did they graduate? And how many of your examples lived very charmed, connected lives from day one? Mr. Blake, for example, attended a prestigious east coast prep school as a young man. Are you trying to tell us that these rare examples, given all the advantages and opportunities in the world should make this young man grateful for years of unemployment and struggle?”

    Still want to enroll in an ABA-accredited garbage pit, lemming?!?! Don’t listen to old farts who graduated from law school 20+ years ago. Also, do not give any weight to some dolt who “knows someone who went to law school and became successful.” Anecdotes are cheap. This is YOUR life, and “legal education” is one expensive, wasteful pursuit. If you attend a toilet - and you take out large sums of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt - it can easily lead to personal financial ruin. In fact, that is a common result of such a moronic decision.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Huh, for a moment there, I thought you had used the same skewered pig picture as you did here in this earlier blog post... http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2015/02/pulled-pork-time-to-rejoice-over-law.html

    But all this talk of greedy toilet schools demanding donations (and more) from their scammed alumni reminds me of the great first comment which someone left at that post (I wish I could have given this guy a gold star or a beer or something, it's so excellent)...

    AnonymousFebruary 19, 2015 at 6:48 AM
    Nando, this is a critical moment in dismantling this insidious industry. This is only the beginning. It took 6 years to get here but you are still here fighting the good fight against these avaricious and corrupt pigs known as law school deans and professors.

    I can tell that law schools are getting desperate. In past years, I would get 2 calls a year for "scholarship" donations to my "alma mater" law school. Now it seems I get them every 2 months. These hustlers have no shame. The send me emails and cards asking for a minimum of $500 as I continue to pay off my student loans which I am now in my 13th year of repayment.

    Another phenomenon I am seeing is that the law school is pestering me with emails asking me to volunteer my time to train/mentor a recent grad. The law school tries to guilt me/twist my arm into doing this by saying that it is my professional obligation to ensure that new lawyers are competent to service the public. FUCK THAT. I thought that was what the law school "academy" was for (sarcasm). I refuse to spend my precious time to train my competition. Why should I impart valuable knowledge and information that it took years for me to obtain on my own. Let the lemmings sink or swim since it was their "dream" to save the world by becoming a lawyer.

    Law schools are worse than ex-wives in that after you divorce them (graduate), they still harass you by asking for more money and more of you. What have the law schools done for you, except take 3 precious years and saddle you with obscene debt? For 3 years, my brain atrophied while I listened to ego-maniacal windbags pontificate about the law despite the fact that most professors had no real experience in practicing law. Oh sure, they may have clerked for Hugo Black or Bill Rehnquist (may Lucifer stick his pitchfork in this prick's soul everyday) or "worked" a couple of years at SullCrom, but the reality is did they litigate a case? Aside from pushing paper, these academic hacks know dick about the practice of law.

    Why can't law professors mentor recent grads since they possess the prestigious credentials to do so? Given that law professors only work a handful of hours a week, why can't they volunteer their time to help out their scammed victims? Oh, because they are above such things. Remember kids, do as I say, not as I do.

    I am contemplating bringing a class action lawsuit against my law school for violating the Do Not Call Registry and for using the U.S. Postal Service in their scheme to perpetuate massive fraud. After all, we know that any monies donated to these scam institutions are siphoned into the pockets of law school deans and professors. How much do you really think goes into a student's scholarship?

    ReplyDelete

 
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