Monday, September 19, 2016

Smells of Desperation: Second Tier Cesspit University of Tulsa College of Law Reduces Tuition by 35 Percent


http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/law_school_cuts_tuition_by_35_percent/

The News: On September 14, 2016, the ABA Journal featured an article from Stephanie Francis Ward, under the headline “Law school cuts tuition by 35%.” Here is the full text below:

“The University of Tulsa College of Law, a private institution, is reducing tuition and ending its regional scholarship plan for the next school year. 

This year, tuition at the law school is $37,960, the National Jurist reports. In 2017, it will be $24,600. TU Law announced the new tuition level earlier this month.

“This tuition reduction is designed to be really transparent about the cost of legal education,” said Lyn Entzeroth, the law school’s dean, to the National Jurist. 

Tuition for the law school had risen 10 percent over the past three years, and so the school had offered more scholarships. A full 100 percent of the students received scholarships last year, according to the National Jurist. TU Law will continue to offer other need and merit scholarships. An analysis by the National Jurist’s publication preLaw found that on average, students during the 2014-2015 year individually paid $15,835 in tuition. 

According to the law school’s website, its bar passage rate for first-time test takers was 75 percent for the July 2015 exam. ABA data (PDF) reports that out of 94 graduates that year, 59 had full-time, long-term employment that required JDs, and 19 had long-term positions where a law degree was preferred.” [Emphasis mine]

This second tier bag of ass is resorting to tuition discounts for all students, in order to try and persuade applicants with decent LSAT scores to apply there. This is the equivalent of putting out on the first date. It signals desperation. 

http://abovethelaw.com/2016/09/wow-law-school-slashes-tuition-by-a-whopping-35-percent/

Other Coverage: On September 13, 2016, Staci Zaretsky posted an ATL entry labeled “Wow! Law School Slashes Tuition By A Whopping 35 Percent.” Check out this opening:

“Law schools have finally accepted the fact that during these trying times, three years of legal education is more likely to put students into a lifetime of debt than a lifelong career. In the past, other law schools have instituted tuition freezes and smaller tuition cuts, but today, we’ve got some exciting news about a law school that’s going forward with the largest tuition cut we’ve heard of, to date. 

At the beginning of the month, the University of Tulsa College of Law announced it would be rolling out its “Access to Legal Education Tuition” program, starting in fall 2017. Per the school’s press release, tuition under this plan will be $24,600 per year, placing it among the most affordable private law schools in the nation. Here’s more: 

“The Access to Legal Education Tuition responds to the need to offer law students an outstanding and affordable legal education at a selective, Top 100 private law school. By reducing student debt, TU Law graduates will be better positioned to launch fulfilling legal careers in large or small firms, government, solo or rural practices, and public interest work with underserved communities,” said Lyn Entzeroth, Dean and Dean John Rogers Endowed Chair at TU College of Law. “TU Law’s placement of students in JD and JD-preferred jobs was most recently ranked 26th in the nation by US News and World Report. The new tuition will further strengthen students’ professional options.”

Considering that tuition at Tulsa Law has risen by 10 percent over the past three years, this reduction is a much-needed change of pace. Tuition for students who entered the school this fall will pay $37,960, but next year, they’ll pay $13,360 less.

On top of Tulsa’s generous tuition cuts, the school will continue to offer need-based and merit-based scholarships. In fact, as the law school’s tuition rose, it offered more and more scholarships to its students. Last year, 100 percent of students received scholarships, and the year prior, 91 percent of students received scholarships.” [Emphasis mine]

Does anyone think that this is going to be sustainable for the trash pit, on a long-term basis?!?! Now that every enrolled lemming will receive a 35 percent tuition discount, i.e. “scholarship,” the school will continue to bleed money.

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2014/730/579/2014-730579298-0b2bc5d5-9.pdf

University Endowment: Based on this 2014 Form 990 for EIN 73-0579298, the University of Tulsa had an endowment of $1,266,267,922 - as of June 30, 2014. This means that the parent university has money to piss away. However, the top brass will not be happy – for long – about sending money to the law school pigs.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings/page+4

Ranking: Why would such an “elite institution of higher education” need to reduce tuition?!?! According to US “News” & World Report, the Univer$iTTy of TTul$a Commode of Law is rated as the co-86th greatest, most phenomenal, and illustrious law school in the entire damn country! Hell, it “only” shares this “distinct honor” with the following five trash heaps: Chicago-Kent, Pennsylania State University-Dickinson, Pennslyvania State University-University Park, Syracuse, and the University of Arkansas-Fayetteville.

Conclusion: Avoid the dung heap known as the Univer$iTTy of TTul$a, at all costs. While reducing the cost of tuition by more than a third may be enticing to a dolt, remember that it is still ranked 86th “best” in the nation – and it is located in Oklahoma. Have you seen any evidence of any thriving legal markets in the state?! Graduating with an additional $110K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE DEBT – for a TT law degree - will not improve your financial situation. Do the math, simpleton.

37 comments:

  1. Tuitions should come W-A-Y down at most law schools! Down until it corresponds to the real value of the JD from the particular law school.

    ReplyDelete
  2. If a second tier is so desperate, the third and fourth tier shitcans can't be long for this world. But they'll certainly try to squeeze every last drop out of their smaller and smaller classes. Possibly before taking off to Fiji with a bag full of money.

    ReplyDelete
  3. The articles cited are amazingly thorough-it must be tough to read them if you were one of the few paying full freight at the higher tuition-then seeing how many got scholarships-and the new lower tuition. A true scam...these guys will do anything to keep the deans/professors from actually having to practice law.
    Bottom line: don't attend this TTT at the reduced rate-don't even attend for free. The risk is just too high.

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  4. It's still too high!

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  5. I think this is actually refreshing news. The law school cartel is FINALLY beginning to understand the most important law of all: supply and demand.

    This, I believe, will begin a trend whereby law schools will be forced to make huge tuition cuts. Can you imagine how all of those arrogant, overpaid law professors are handling this? Lol. You KNOW behind these tuition cuts are also reductions in staff and forced buyouts.

    @ Nando: Do you have any updates as of late on Chicago-Kent college of law? Last I checked they are still gouging students at about $45,000 / yearly tuition. It, too, is a private school.

    Keep up te great work!

    ReplyDelete
  6. Now... if only we could get 75% of all law schools to drop their annual tuition down to
    FAMU College of Law's tuition rates ...

    The JD would reflect the true market value, and we would be cooking with gas!

    Go LEAP Class of 2019!!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, FAMU college of law.
      July 2016 Florida Bar: 68 took the test, 36 passed, for a whopping pass rate of 52.9%.
      For almost 50% of attendees, FAMU LS is a colossal waste of time and money; how can you, in good conscience, recommend this school to anyone?

      Delete
  7. I’m willing to bet you see more law schools follow this marketing strategy. They have followed the marketing techniques of the tobacco companies to sell their professional and financial destructive product. Historically, tobacco companies did not use pricing to market their products. But with restrictions on advertising, pricing of tobacco products became a key marketing strategy. And pricing strategies work. Pricing strategies are particularly effective when targeting younger audiences. But it is not enough to use price to market your product. You have to combine price with other marketing strategies, like conveying your product makes a person “cool.” You want to emphasize the “positive” qualities of your product. Appeal to the individual’s aspirations by using themes of glamour, sophistication, inclusion, popularity, and independence.

    Research in psychology also shows that you can sell your product by suppressing the perception of risk. The tobacco companies followed this strategy by promoted their product using terms such as “light” to deceive consumers into believing the cigarette was safer.

    The law schools are already using deceptive marketing strategies. Just check out Cooley’s website. They prominently feature an article on the Tampa Bay Lightning head coach titled, “How law school led to coaching in the NHL.” (Cooley had nothing to do with getting a head coaching job in the NHL).

    Most prospective students probably already know the job market sucks. So you have to make them feel law school is less risky and you have to appeal to their aspirations. So most law schools now proclaim they have “experiential learning” and make students “practice ready.” Those programs do not create one legal job. But hey, law school sounds less risky when you think you will have special skills by the time you graduate.

    You also have the latest gimmick of advertising an employment rate that includes non-legal jobs and part time jobs. The pigs have openly written in law review articles that any job counts in the overall employment rate, because they claim graduates choose to take business jobs and part time jobs. You tell lemmings that the JD is the ticket to business, politics, or a “flexible” part time job! And you tell the lemmings that a shortage of law graduates is imminent! So now lemmings feel like they are in demand. They can do anything!

    So this year’s crop of lemmings applying to Tulsa can say, “gee, I got a great deal and I will be practice ready by the time the legal market takes off!” Plus you pump up the glamour of a JD because you will make an extra cool million dollars!

    There is one more psychological phenomenon at play and it explains why law schools will not be shutting down in the near future. It also explains why law schools respond to the scam bloggers so aggressively. Lemmings grow up in a culture that depicts lawyers as leading wealthy, glamorous lives. Lawyers work in fancy offices, and win big cases in the court room. Lemmings have a strong belief that they will become that successful TV lawyer. When you present lemmings with the factual information from the scam blog movement and the deceptive information from the law school pigs, lemmings go through the psychological phenomenon of attitude polarization. Lemmings interpret all of the info presented to them selectively, and they reinforce their existing belief that law school is a great choice. After considering all of the info, lemmings actually believe more strongly that law school is right for them.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @ anonymous 2:05 -
      In addition to making the degree appear "sophisticated" and "cool," (etc) one can also argue it's "green" (i.e., environmentally friendly). The diploma is printed on biodegradable paper - so it won't harm the environment once it is placed in the trash can.

      Delete
  8. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingSeptember 19, 2016 at 2:39 PM

    At least it's a real law school. My suggestion is simple. No law professor nor dean should be earning any more that the IRS average of 37K take home pay for a Solo or small firm lawyer which is over 50% of the profession. These Prawfs and deans, like me, should pay their own Obama Care which is 5 bills for Bronze Plan, carry mal-practice insurance, work all year long, pay their own office and phones, bar dues and receive unpaid vacations and unpaid holidays. Parity. Fairness. Otherwise, there are thousand and thousand of underemplpoyed schmuck lawyers like me that will step up an teach as 1099 contractors at $250. per week to teach....which is $2500.00 per semester. I can teach Palsgraff or Terry. I actually practice it everyday....these Prawfs don't.

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  9. Can we get a consensus on where TT ends and TTT begins? This is ranked 86th, and that seems TTT to me. I would think 50th rank would be the cutoff for TT.

    On the plus side, this is proof positive that law school needn't cost 39,000 a year.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You're exactly right. This toilet is not in the "second tier" by any meaningful standard.

      First tier: Harvard, Yale, maybe Stanford
      Second tier: about five more
      Third tier: about eight more
      Fourth tier: all others

      This comes from my observation, now a couple of years old, that only 16 law schools in the US see even 40% of their graduates get the sorts of jobs that might support the payments on student loans that fully financed the cost of law school.

      In other words, more than 90% of law schools are in the fourth tier.

      Delete
    2. Agree. Attending anything beyond 50th is useless. If can't get into a T8-T50 on almost total scholarship, you don't have the aptitude to be a successful attorney. Period. Even T9-T25 puts you in trap hell unless Daddy hires you.

      Delete
    3. How dare you Sh%t on Seton Hall. We are at a respectable rank of 65 !

      Our law school makes dreams of becoming a lawyer come true. Do not be mad because you have to compete with us.

      Delete
  10. I think the main problem with a school such as U of Tulsa is that its range of potential employers is 100% local. No law firm in NYC (or any major city really) is going to hire someone from University of Tulsa Law School. As for myself, I have never met anyone who attended this school. Avoid at all costs unless you plan to practice in Tulsa or its environs.

    ReplyDelete
  11. "The University of Tulsa College of Law announced it would be rolling out its “Access to Legal Education Tuition” program, starting in fall 2017." --ATL

    Why wait until the Fall of 2017? Why not reduce tuition immediately, or at least implement the tuition reduction as of the Spring 2016-2017 term?

    Do the masterminds of America's 86th best law school anticipate that the value of their educational program, as of Fall 2017, will be 35% less than it is now? Because if not, it seems to me that they are implicitly admitting that their students are currently being overcharged.

    As the great Oklahoma native Woody Guthrie put it: "Some will rob you with a six-gun/ And some with a fountain pen."

    ReplyDelete
  12. Guys , your focus is a little off. Graduating with a JD should be a long term investment. Like many other professions, starting out you might take a hit on the salary.

    Example: Doctor's graduate and on average make $30k to $50 a year (depending on specialty) while doing residency. Upon completion of residency the big bucks come rolling in (unless you decide for more schooling). Law School should be any different.

    But what these poster's are not telling you is that 5 years out, 10 years out, you will be naming your price as a seasoned lawyer! (Ok, you will not be printing money, but you can command a higher salary). Divorce lawyers bill at $250 an hour.

    Although New Jersey (is considered the "Arm Pit" of America), Seton Hall law grads are fairing well 5 and 10 years out. They are not starving!

    So hopefully tuition continues to drop but think long term and do not be afraid to dream.

    "A mind is a terrible thing to waste"....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ah, the grammar...Ah, the spelling-Mr AAMPLE is back, kids, and does he have some cliches for you!
      But it's a fact-free post-the average medical resident makes more like 55k/year, and the pay has nothing-as in zero-to do with specialty. That's still not much when considering medical school loans.
      And not sure what your obsession with SH is...it's really just bizarre, especially when Nando's entry is about Tulsa.
      But once again, you've got everything wrong-but let's start with the simple stuff-there are maybe a handful of attorneys in the USA who can be "naming your price as a seasoned lawyer." Most of the rest are scrambling for clients or selling insurance.
      But enough; you posts are factually inaccurate and morally indefensible. Please go back to watching cable in your parents' basement.

      Delete
    2. If I didn't know you were a troll, I would assume you are smoking crack heavily or eating 'shrooms. If the latter, I would ask you to share.

      Delete
    3. Why are you talking about Seton Hall. This post isn't about Seton Hall. Are you a SH law student nervous about job prospects?

      Delete
    4. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingSeptember 21, 2016 at 12:46 PM

      I know several attorneys, including me, whose practices literally tanked after 20 or more years of practice. It started with the huge glut of new Solo attorneys (ie unemployed and can't find jobs) being added to "appointed work" lists, the dissolution of neighborhood practices and connections due to the internets and social media and from desperate newbie solos with no work taking traffic cases for $49.00 and advising people via billboard to "not pay that ticket." I am not opposed to "competition." However, even the Dental Schools reduced their ranks and GM got rid of Oakland, LaSalle, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, Saab, and GEO.

      Delete
    5. Our friend at 3:17 clearly has ZERO experience in the practice of law (I'll stand corrected if he will reveal his practice area, after which I'll pepper him with some choice questions) Anyway, anyone really practicing (or who is a recovering sh!tlawyer like myself who has fled the law)will tell you clients nowadays are questioning EVERY LINE ON THE BILL. Every item. There's a handful at the top of the profession who can "name their own price". All others, be prepared to have your bill scrutinized each and every time. Kids, ingnore this shill. DO something else.

      Delete
    6. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingSeptember 22, 2016 at 7:04 AM

      3:17 Wrote "Name your price?" Drive down Western Avenue in Chicago. On nearly every block, there is a law office. Drive down a cross street...Montrose, Belmont, 79th Street...same thing the other direction. And that's not the thousands of "invisible" lawyers in Class C space in the Loop. In rural communities, entire town squares are jammed with lawyer's offices. In a suburb like Schaumberg, you will find decrepit 50s faux colonial style "professional" buildings oozing with PI, Family, and Criminal law schmucks going to court for 2 bills. You may say $250 or 400 per hour, try collecting....

      Delete
    7. Seton Hall/Mr. AAMPLE dude,

      If you are going to troll us, at least be entertaining. Give us something we’d see on law school lemmings, like you graduated Seton Hall and used your million dollar premium to buy a BMW. Talk about how Seton Hall led you to a career in international space law!

      Instead, as mentioned previously, you make a factually incorrect comparison to a real profession. Not only were you wrong about the salary of resident physicians, but you left out a lot of critical facts. Over 90% of graduates of U.S. medical schools obtained a residency. Only 66% of graduates of ABA accredited schools even obtained a job requiring bar passage. And residency programs offer benefits, like health insurance, life insurance, malpractice insurance, vacations, and limitations on the number of hours that can be worked. Try getting those benefits working at the local shit law office/doc review job! Residency programs pay resident physicians less because they are training them to become internists, surgeons, radiologists, etc. Shit law/doc review jobs pay lawyers less because the profession has collapsed and the market is saturated. Moreover, lawyers working doc review are not learning to practice law.

      You are also several years behind your scam dean talking points. There was a time when the scam deans said you have to ignore their atrocious job statistics because a legal career doesn’t really take off until 10 years after graduation. I imagine they stopped spouting this nonsense because 1) they looked at some data that showed this was absolutely false or 2) it’s hard to sell people a product that produces disastrous results in the short term with the fantasy of being successful a decade later. It’s far better to sell lemmings on the idea that they have a million dollar premium, can do anything with their JD, and a shortage of law grads is coming in 2015, er 2016…

      Lastly, why the hell are you touting Seton Hall? Seton Hall proclaims on their website that the class of 2015 results are strong! They claim they have a 95.36% total employment rate. And they claim that 89.69% of their grads obtained bar passage required/JD advantage jobs. (Not sure why Seton Hall needed to round to 2 decimal places). Check out the numbers from that dump. 54% of the class obtained state/local clerkships. Strange that over half the class took a state clerkship (a short term job for the graduates, but luckily for Seton Hall these jobs are recorded as a long term job). Where the hell are these people going to end up in a year? Another 12% of the class entered the exciting world of “business and industry.” Why don’t you tell us about how Seton Hall is the ticket into business management/corporate counsel jobs! But when you look further at the numbers, you see just how “prestigious” a JD from Seton Hall is viewed by legal employers. Only 1 damn person got a federal clerkship. And only 9% of the class obtained jobs with law firms of 100+ lawyers.

      Delete
  13. http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/tulsabusiness/tu-law-offers-degrees-in-energy-law-indian-law/article_77d788e9-da41-54aa-9605-0e14ad795fbe.html

    How is this for timely? On September 13, 2016, the Tulsa Business & Legal News published a piece from correspondent Ralph Schaefer, under the headline "TU law offers degrees in energy law, Indian law." Check out this portion:

    "A single person watched the television in the living room and listened intently to the college professor leading the discussion.

    Suddenly the tables were turned because the professor posted a question to the person, who responded as though he was in a classroom.

    They were part of the University of Tulsa’s online legal education program and was working toward a master’s degree in either Indian law or energy law. The interaction from a student’s home is part of a program that involves approximately 100 students from many parts of the U.S.

    Jessie Pierre-Jack, online legal education assistant dean, and Vladimir Merisca, online legal education administrative coordinator, are members of the staff responsible for ensuring that professors can teach and students have access to either Indian law or energy law curriculum through the internet.

    This is not a juris doctorate program where a graduate can set up an office and practice law, Pierre-Jack said. It is an opportunity for students to upgrade their education level and learn more about their specific areas of employment or interest.

    Energy law students could include landmen responsible for negotiating contracts, meeting landowners or working with regulatory agencies seeking the latest rules. Indian law students could be working for a tribe, the gaming industry, Indian administration or government.
    Others may have interaction with lawyers and “want to understand the foreign language” attorneys speak, she said.

    Classes meet at a predetermined time and date and generally last about two hours. It takes four semesters (24 credits) to complete the energy law degree and 2 ½ years (30 credits) for the Indian law degree."

    The Univer$iTTy of TTul$a Commode of Law has found another income stream, i.e. dumbasses who want Master's degrees online from the ABA-accredited trash pit. How honorable, huh?!?!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Imagine getting a master's degree in law without even the pretext of having studied elementary law.

      Delete
  14. Congratulations to Nando for 5,000,000 hits!
    Shows the problems have not away.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Thanks, Old Ruster. Everyone can see that even with the big-ass tuition cuts at this cesspit, the cost of attendance is still outrageous.

    https://law.utulsa.edu/tuition-fees/

    "Tuition & Fees

    Cost of Attendance 2017-2018

    Tuition, fees, and estimated costs (per year, based upon 2016-2017 fees and costs)

    FULL-TIME
    Tuition: $24,600
    Books: $1,500
    Fees: $654
    Insurance Fee: $1,340
    Room/Board: $12,642
    Travel: $1,806
    Personal: $3,612
    Loan Fees: $850
    Total: $47,004

    PART-TIME (8-11 HOURS)
    Tuition: $17,220
    Books: $800
    Fees: $320
    Insurance Fee: $1,340
    Room/Board: $12,642
    Travel: $1,806
    Personal: $3,612
    Loan Fees: $850
    Total: $38,590"

    Remember that the total COA is also based on nine month living expenses. Do you still have $47,004 each year - for three damn years - to cover these immense costs, Lemming?!?! Of course not! This means that your ass will be taking out additional NON-DISCHARGEABLE student loans. Good luck finding a decent job, with a law degree from the 86th "best" law school in the country, dolt.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Congratulations on 5 million, Nando and keep fighting the good fight!

    ReplyDelete
  17. Do they also have Klingon law, Darth Vader law, Obi Wan law, Murphy's law, etc?

    ReplyDelete
  18. Without regard to the value of a legal education today, the cost of tuition at this school will now be very much in line with the cost of tuition for many colleges at the undergraduate level. So really there are two issues . . . cost and value. The cost is not that bad for a JD. Whether there is value ultimately depends, I suppose, on how successful you are in practicing law. Some people will make money beyond their wildest dreams and will love their jobs. Others will eek out an existence and will hate their jobs. Who will you be?

    ReplyDelete
  19. [quote] Agree. Attending anything beyond 50th is useless. If can't get into a T8-T50 on almost total scholarship, you don't have the aptitude to be a successful attorney. Period. Even T9-T25 puts you in trap hell unless Daddy hires you.[/quote]

    That's BS. Some of the most successful lawyers I know are from lower ranked law schools . . the difference is they are self employed... and knocking it dead. Law does not require brilliance, it requires tenacity and an ability to connect with people, and if you are a trial lawyer, the ability to think quickly on your feet and to know the law . . . It does not require brilliance by any means.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Agreed. Many of those lawyers started and gained experience and seasoning as Public Defenders and Prosecutors and other government attorneys. At one time, those jobs were plentiful and turn over rates were high. Today, they are highly prized and coveted jobs filled with T-1-T-2 graduates at the tops of their classes. Not lower ranked schools. Additionally, they are no longer stepping stones to private practice, but long termers who don't leave. (Hint: Pensions and Health Care) Today, a kid from any law school, T-1 or Arizona Summit High, who starts as a Solo is functionally unemployed and desperate and thrown into a system she knows nothing about. I pity the client and the attorney.

      Delete
    2. 9:44 AM. Those same law grads who are "knocking it dead" would do as well, probably better, I would argue, in sales, finance, technology or any other field than law.

      Why?

      Because they have entrepreneurial talent. No argument there. But that's not most law grads, not by a long shot , no matter HOW HARD they work. And for them, the relative prestige of their alma mater means a lot, because it determines their starting point in getting any experience practicing at all without getting their head knocked off.

      The people you ae referring to, a relative handful,by the way, as a percentage of law grads, would do well at anything!

      Delete
  20. Everything in Context . . . the cost of education anywhere is exhorbitant, and maybe no longer worth it:

    According to the College Board, the average cost of tuition and fees for the 2015–2016 school year was $32,405 at private colleges, $9,410 for state residents at public colleges, and $23,893 for out-of-state residents attending public universities.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Iowa Bar Update, the first three paragraphs - the rest is rehash everyone here already knows.

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/bar-exam-pass-rates-decline-law-school-brain-drain-blame-waechter

    ReplyDelete
  22. ABA won't be suspended from accrediting new law schools

    http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/aba_wont_be_suspended_from_accrediting_new_law_schools?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=ABA+Journal+Top+Stories#When:13:22:00Z

    ReplyDelete

 
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