Saturday, March 18, 2017

Enjoy the US News & World Report Law School Indebtedness Rankings, for the Class of 2016, Lemmings!

Bend Over: On March 16, 2017, Matt Leichter posted a Law School Tuition Bubble piece that was labeled “ Only 13 Law Schools Didn’t Report 2016 Graduate Debt to U.S. News.” Take a look at this opening:

“Each year U.S. News & World Report lists law schools by the average indebtedness of their graduates. Importantly, the figures exclude accrued interest, which can be quite considerable. However, these numbers are probably the best estimate of the cost of attendance at a particular law school presented in a comparable form. The ABA does not publicize graduate debt in the 509 information reports, making U.S. News an unfortunately necessary source. 

Here’s the debt table. A recurring problem in U.S. News’ debt data is law schools that misreport their graduating students’ annual debt as opposed to their cumulative debt, which is what the magazine asks for. Thus, I include last year’s numbers for illustration and encourage ridicule of law schools that cannot follow basic directions, but I welcome corrections. 

1. Thomas Jefferson 172,726 182,411 5.6% 
2. Whittier 148,316 179,056 20.7% 
3. San Francisco 162,434 167,671 3.2% 
4. New York University 166,022 167,646 1.0% 
5. Georgetown 160,606 166,027 3.4% 
6. American 160,274 164,194 2.4% 
7. Golden Gate 143,740 161,809 12.6% 
8. Columbia 168,627 159,769 -5.3% 
9. John Marshall (Chicago) 162,264 158,888 -2.1% 
10. Florida Coastal 160,942 158,878 -1.3%  [Emphasis mine]

Still want to take the plunge, Dumbass?!?! Would you also like the waiter to pour toilet water in your soup the next time you go to your favorite sit down restaurant? Perhaps, you wouldn’t mind paying your senile neighbor $8,000 in cash for his 1989 Buick LeSabre – with 298K miles on the odometer.

Later on, Leichter points out the following:

“And per this post’s title, here’s the List of Shame: Law schools that chose not to submit their graduates’ debt information to U.S. News, along with their last-reported figures and the year in which they reported them. Thanks to the gainful employment rule, I was able to track down median graduate debt at three for-profits. As I am merciful, I exclude the three Puerto Rico law schools from this count. 

 Arizona Summit [Phoenix] – $178,263 [2015, median, for-profit] 
 Atlanta’s John Marshall – $161,910 [2015, median, for-profit] 
 Charlotte – $145,834 [2015, median, for-profit] 
 Touro – $154,855 (2014) 
 Southwestern – $147,976 (2012) 
 Thomas (FL) – $140,808 (2014) 
 New England – $132,246 (2013) 
 WMU Cooley – $122,395 (2012) 
 Appalachian – $114,740 (2012) 
 La Verne – $112,628 (2012) 
 Texas Southern – $99,992 (2012) 
 Concordia – NEVER 
 Indiana Tech – NEVER [Emphasis in original]

Here’s a rule of thumb: if you are considering a particular cesspit to piss away the next three years of your life – and those bastards do not disclose their most recent average law student indebtedness figures – do not apply! It’s that simple. If you wouldn’t rent an apartment without stepping inside the place first, why the hell would you make such a HUGE financial decision without this vital info?!?! You would likely refrain from purchasing a moderately priced piece of art, without a certificate of authenticity from a reputable firm. Frankly, you wouldn't buy from a store that doesn't offer returns. Don’t toss your brain in the trash when looking at law schools. Exercise some critical judgment.

Straight From USN&WR: Here is the direct source, for Leichter’s figures. I know that people love the latest rankings each year. Hell, it’s about the only thing keeping this magazine even remotely relevant. However, as we all know if you’re attending the 40th, 57th, or 89th “best” law school in the county, it doesn’t really matter for your future job prospects. The only difference might be the debt you incur – depending on cost of living, tuition discounts, and whether your commode is private or public. Last year, Bob Morse went with an idiotic format – in which he listed ABA diploma mills by state, which were listed by alphabetic order.

Conclusion: If you are still seeking to attend law school, with all the available evidence showing that it is a terrible gamble for the vast majority of students, then you are a simpleton. At least, now you can access the charts above so that you don’t completely ruin yourself financially, in the process of attaining a “legal education.” Look at the top 10 list, cited by Leichter. Only NYU and Columbia are highly rated, and Georgetown is historically a “top 14” diploma mill. The rest are festering piles of garbage. 

What will your employment outlook be coming out of a place such as TTTThoma$ Jeffer$on Sewer of Law, WhiTTTTier, or Florida Coa$TTTTal? Even if you perform better than the average sucker enrolled at those dung heaps, decent law firms and workplaces will still see that name on your resume or cover letter. Good luck, Bitch. That’s akin to asking out a lovely woman – right after disclosing that you have a rash on your balls.


  1. Yesterday was match day for fourth year medical students. 94% of U.S. allopathic medical students matched into a residency program. Students across the country celebrated the match results and will start their professional careers in a few months. They will go on to earn salaries in the $50k range, with benefits such as health insurance, life insurance, paid travel to medical conferences, and malpractice insurance. Of course, when they complete residency, they will go on to earn substantially more.

    Law school students go into debt to the tune of $150,000. How many law school graduates will get to celebrate obtaining any type of bar passage required employment this year? How many law school graduates will even obtain jobs with similar pay and benefits to that of resident physicians? Notice how medical students don’t have to “hustle” or “network” to get a job. Every year, +90% of U.S. medical students pass their professional exams and +90% match into a residency program. Despite law students paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for an “education,” law schools tell us expecting them to get 75% of graduates to pass the bar exam is too onerous! We already know the explanation for the disparities in outcomes between medical school graduates and law school graduates. Medical schools are operated to train students to enter a profession. Law schools are operated to transfer federal student loan dollars into the pockets of administrators and professors.

    1. Also, if you go to medical school, you don't have to put up with the social justice crap that law professors try to force down your throat.

    2. Even the worst US med schools (ie, the easiest to get into) have very low acceptance rates (around 10%) and average GPAs above 3.5. Compare that to bottom barrel law schools, which would probably admit a high functioning Downs Syndrome kid. Medicine is a profession. Law is a joke.

    3. But here's the problem: you just can't "go" to medical school. Getting in requires planning, doing well in required courses, a ton of ECs and volunteer/research hours, etc etc.
      Law school? For the TTTTs it's literally possible to roll out of bed and enroll. It's the impulse purchase of higher education, and it usually leads to buyer's remorse.

  2. Throwaway AttorneyMarch 18, 2017 at 10:06 AM

    Awfully hard to pay back $180K in student loans when your worthless JD from Thomas Jefferson can't so much as enable you to pass the bar or land you a cashier's job at Wal Mart.

    But I'm sure if you just hustle and network a little harder, it will all be fine.

    1. The best part will be the "overqualified" nonsense so you can't even land the Walmart job. Not that you'd even want it, with that much education and with your age, that is a pretty miserable fate to end up in after law school and passing a bar exam with a ton of debt on top of that.

      It's pretty miserable even after graduating college. Now you add more time and more debt, ouch.

      Most people go to school and go to work so they can get out of their parents house and have their own life.

      Law graduates are lucky to be allowed back into their parents' homes, because the alternative is fairly brutal.

  3. We should turn that debt ranking upside down for a true ranking of the best law schools to attend. With that being said, South Dakota does very well.

    1. South Dakota reports inaccurate information. Have you ever lived in Vermillion, South Dakota? I have. It sucks.

  4. The real telling thing to me is the percentage of students who incur ZERO debt for law school. At places like Columbia, it's close to 40%! At toilet schools, it's about 4%.

    What that shows me is that the ppl coming from a true wealth background have an understanding that the dump law school degree is worthless among the elite and connected.

    I'm not saying that's right, but lemmings need to stop living in a fantasy world and start learning how the legal field really works!

  5. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingMarch 18, 2017 at 7:51 PM

    I never thought after almost 30 years I would still be paying a healthy chunk of my income toward a law school student loan. It just keeps compounding and multiplying. I started to gain some traction a few years back, but now I am competing with $49.00 Chicagoland Traffic Billboard lawyers and a glutted market. I would need at least 10 of those tickets (meaning new clients) per month, every month to make my student loan nut alone. Now, let's talk about my old car and a kid who wants an I-Phone and needs braces....

    Nando is right on.

    1. Stop trying to scare potential law students. You Sir are a loser and are not trying hard enough in life!

      If you think it... you can achieve it!

    2. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingMarch 19, 2017 at 6:45 AM

      You are absolutely correct, I am a loser at making a middle class income out of a law practice. That would be nearly all of my colleagues who all graduated from T-2 or better schools and once had very good incomes. I wasn't always a loser at the game. I am not trying to scare law students. Like most of the posters here, I want them to go into it with their eyes wide open. Informed consent. Unless you are at a T-1 School near the top of your class with some sort of connections, you will end up like me...

    3. 6:06-seriously, take a look at the numbers and find an amortization table on the internet; even you can plug the numbers in. How long will it take to "achieve" paying off this debt? Years? Well, more like decades-and don't forget the college debt.
      And regarding the good Cap'n-have you tried the solo practice of law?'re too busy watching old episodes of "Boston Legal" and singing Jimny Crickett tunes.

    4. That is exactly what he is doing - solo practice of law.

    5. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance KingMarch 19, 2017 at 7:22 PM

      That's correct. I am now stuck as a struggling Solo. Don't call my buddies and I lazy, crazy, unimaginative, etc. We have all applied to dozens of legal jobs and tried everything short of solicitation. Ethics. Solo practice was decent until 2006. Back then, I wouldn't show up to court for anything less than 5 bills minimum retainer. Today, I drive for two hours to a courtroom for $150.00. Triple the work for 1/4th the fees. You must be a Dean or professor who has never seen the inside of a courtroom. Ask any solo in any courtroom what they received as a fee to show up to court that day. I know one guy who got $20.00...happy he got something.

    6. Captain,

      There are attorneys down at the Daley Center traffic court that exclusively handle traffic ticket defense. They can’t be making a lot of money. They wear cheap, dirty, wrinkled suits and churn through several cases an hour. Cabbies and truck drivers hire these lawyers so they can keep their driving record clean. One of the attorneys down there was caught by a bailiff trying to convince an immigrant that they were required to hire him as their lawyer. These attorneys just work out of the courthouse. They would meet their clients before the court call, get their story, and collect payment on the spot.

      These guys always have a couple of cases an hour being dismissed because the CPD doesn’t show up. When the officer does show up, this one attorney had all sorts of tricks. If the judge that day was a hammer, the attorney would ask for a delay because it was almost guaranteed that next time there would be a different judge. And because the judges are always rotating, he knew how to play the system. One time his cabbie client was on his second or third ticket. When the officer showed up to the court call, the attorney asked for a delay. About a month later at the next court date, the officer was back again. The judge refused to grant the attorney another delay. So the cabbie “fired” the attorney and asked for a delay to hire a new attorney. A month later, the cop was back in court again. The case was before a third judge. The cabbie told the judge he hired the lawyer back, but the lawyer was across town at another courthouse for a different case. Just minutes earlier, the lawyer had been hanging around the courtroom waiting to see if the cop had showed up or not. The judge went ahead and granted another continuance.

      If this attorney had to go to trial, he would put on an elaborate show for the client and the people in the courtroom waiting for the case to be called. Some of those people watching would then hire this traffic lawyer. The guy would try to drag out the cross examination of the officer to get the officer to lose their cool in front of the judge. Then when the city rested, the attorney would go into a long winded motion to dismiss. He would always misstate the testimony of the officer in his motion. The judges would never dismiss on the spot. But his client and the audience sure thought he was fighting hard. He would then have his lying client testify that the light was green or they stopped at the stop sign, or deny whatever they were accused of. He probably won about half of his cases.

      Good luck paying back $150,000 in student loans churning through traffic court cases. You may have to check your ethics at the door, but Team AAMPLE calls that “hustling!”

    7. I have personally seen those traffic ticket career attorneys.

      They stand in the hallway, with deck of traffic tickets about 3 inches thick.

      The courtrooms are nothing like I have ever seen. The judge sits in the center on the bench, but to the judge's left and right about about 6 clerks on either side, about 12 total. One walks in, gets processed by each clerk, stands before the judge and then on to the other clerks who process the trial's results.

      The attorneys were impressive-I had never seen anyone wear a pink plaid vest under a suit before.

      I wouldn't wear such a vest to a midnight showing of "Evil Roy Slade," the pinnacle of tastelessness (a favorite).

    8. The Team AAMPLE asshole has never practiced law a single day in his life. But that doesn't stop the dipshit from encouraging others to go to law school.

  6. Hello, everyone. I realize this is OT, but this is just too good not to share, especially as long as we're discussing ways to convince young folks to avoid law school and do something else with their lives.

    Because if you're going to do that, then you might want to help them avoid this other industry as well: The video game industry.

    Just browse around the Internet and you'll see countless horror stories about degrading and dehumanizing jobs in that industry; not only that, they sound eerily like the horror stories shared at places like Tom the Temp's blog!

    First, you have the oversaturation because of the eager and starry-eyed kids thinking it's a dream job, so that allows the bosses to do the churn-n-burn routine and pay them peanuts all the while. Then you have the lowest of the low on the company hierarchy: quality assurance (QA), for the people who do the grunt work and test the games and look for bugs to fix before they're released. So many countless poor fools think they can work their way up the ladder from that bottom tier, but nope, everyone thinks that if you were good enough to do anything other than be a tester, then you wouldn't be a tester. Sounds just like contract attorneys and document review!

    And so many of these stories sound eerily similar to what I've read here in scamblog land over the years. People being worked as much as 80 hours per week and sometimes even ending up in the hospital? Scumbag male bosses who harrass and grope female employees? Doing your absolute best work and still being escorted out the building like a criminal when the job is done? People going crazy and smearing fecal matter all over the bathroom walls? It's all there! I'll share links to a few stories later...

    If I encountered any prospective lemmings, I'd tell them not to go into either field, law or video games. At least with the video game industry, you don't need to go to college or go into debt just to catch bugs.

  7. The sad thing is plenty of losers making $12 an hour in retail would be willing to take on $100k in student loans for a chance to make $50k a year as a lawyer. It's why retards keep going to law skool.

    1. Who wants to be a retail monkey selling toilet paper and banannas with an irregular schedule for 40 years? You can fight for justice against Trump and the Environment and be the next Clarence Darrow or Johnnie Cochran. They don't SEE the decrepit suburban 50s faux Colonial style "Professional" buildings housing 5 new Solos sharing one office cause they couldn't get hired at the DA or PD's office. Their hustling 50 dollar traffic tickets and soft tissue low speed rear enders. After years of litigation they come out with 5 bills. At least they can call themselves a LAWYER!!!

    2. This is exactly correct; we're not talking lemmings or special snowflakes. There's a whole new crop of students who can't articulate any reason for attending law school. other than it beats working retail. Take a look at the comments from attendees of Charlotte or any other TTTT; most of them, frankly, don't make any sense.

  8. Notice that the very most contemptible of the toilets cluster at the top of the list for average debt. Thomas Jefferson. Shittier. Arizona Scum Pit. Horrida Coastal. Harlotte. Touro. Quite a few others.

    Why should the shittiest, the very shittiest, have the highest debt?

    Indiana Tech probably has relatively low average debt, since tuition last year was nil. Even so, Indiana Tech was always a bad bet at any price.

  9. A JD beats living in your parents basement while doing full/part time retail jobs ... any day of the week!

    Once you pass the bar, your bar card will give you access to jobs you could not get otherwise and will open doors to many outstanding career opportunities.

    And by the way my ex went and graduated from Ross med. and makes $160k a year now doing internal medicine.

    The loans for professional degrees are truly worth it. Paying them back is all a state of mind. Don't miss out on your greatness because your scared to invest in yourself!

    When I went to undergrad I said " I only make $5.15 an hour now, man how will I every pay of the student loan of $18k".

    Four years later graduated and found a good paying job and paid back ALL the loans in 6 months. This only took financial discipline.

    My education lifted me out of poverty and into the middle class! I am sure law school will do the same for you, but the payback period may be a little longer depending if you have your financial black belt at the time.

    Even making $50k a year on IBR as you learn the ropes is a better shot than not trying at all.

    1. You conflate medical school with the legal profession. Year ago, that may have been somewhat accurate. Nurses, doctors, techs, therapists are in demand even at the cusp of an aging population. The AMA protects its members and maintains standards. The ABA and the law schools will admit almost anybody and the market is completely glutted and clients know that. Do you price shop an MD when you get cancer? You are lucky to get an appointment. Get arrested for retail theft at Walmart. You will get dozens and dozens of attorney and law firm flyers and post cards in the mail soliciting for your "business."

    2. OK, team AAMPLE, you've had your fun; now it's time to grow up.
      First, the fact that your ex went to Ross has nothing, at all, to do with TTTT law schools. The fact that she's your ex shows her good judgment, though.
      And you've published stupid things before, but to write "Paying them[school loans]back is all a state of mind" is almost indescribably inane.
      It's not a "state of mind" it's a loan that has to be paid back. Loan collectors, bad credit ratings, and financial ruin aren't a "state of mind" they are instead a near guarantee. And your obsession with IBR is just that. In order to get IBR, you need to pass the bar and get a job; if you don't pass, and don't get a job-no IBR for you. Understand?
      You've had your fun; now go back to your parents' basement, as you've just admitted that you aren't a lawyer and have never practiced law. You have no idea what you're rambling on about.

    3. Team AAMPLE,

      We learn how pathetic and sad your life is with each inane comment you write. You were arrested for prostitution in a Walmart bathroom. So you hired an AAMPLE grad to handle your guilty plea. Did you also hire an AAMPLE grad to handle your divorce proceedings when your wife filed for divorce after your arrest? You are bitter and angry because you think you can’t attend law school with your criminal history. So you spend your days trolling this website, imploring lemmings to attend law school and calling other commenters losers. Great news! A TTTT will not reject you because of your criminal history. Like you said a few days ago, California allowed an illegal immigrant to become a licensed attorney. “If he can do it... your [sic] telling me you without all of the barrier [sic] he had to overcome cant [sic] make a decent career in Law???????” I implore you Team AAMPLE, “[d]on’t miss out on your greatness because your [sic] scared to invest in yourself!” Take the TTTT plunge and start law school this fall. Update us every day with your TTTT experiences.

    4. What is protecting doctors is not the AMA but the limits Congress placed on the number of residency slots about 20 years ago.

    5. Nando: Thanks! I love and greatly appreciate your blog. You, Sir, have validated my decision to steer clear of law school. I was one of just a few newly minted college graduates who (30 years ago) could clearly see and grasp the reality that there was a glut of JDs and foresaw the arguably disastrous situation that has existed over the last several years. My father was a trial attorney and later an associate professor of law (contracts, business associations, energy). I experienced years of contrition over snubbing an offer to follow in his footsteps. Thanks for validating my determination and alleviating my guilt.

    6. With all due respect to anon 2:38, the limits Congress placed on the number of residency slots drives up the salary of attending physicians (physicians that have completed residency). Those limits have no impact on the number of students U.S. medical schools admit. This year, there were almost 32,000 residency positions available. But there were only about 18,500 applicants from U.S. MD programs. The remaining positions were filled by students from DO programs and foreign medical schools.

      Nothing prevents U.S. MD programs from slashing admission standards and admitting anyone with a pulse. The U.S. med schools could churn out 40,000 grads a year like ABA accredited law schools. The med schools could claim there are amazing “MD advantage” jobs for those who fail to obtain a residency position. They could publish fraudulent employment data claiming that 99% of their grads obtained jobs, even though a substantial number of those jobs were at Starbucks. They could accuse unemployed MDs of being lazy, entitled, and unimaginative. They could advise unemployed grads to move to Nebraska. They could publish studies that a MD alone has a million dollar premium over a BS/BA. Rather than grading courses pass/fail, the med schools could grade courses on a strict curve with a low median GPA. Then they could offer conditional scholarships requiring students to maintain a specific GPA and stack those students in the same section, to guarantee a substantial number of students lose the scholarship after the first year. The schools could even boost their USMLE scores and residency match rates by failing out a substantial number of underperforming students after the first or second year. But only after the schools had collected the student loan money. Or they could pay their underperforming students to forgo the USMLE.

      Except that U.S. MD programs don’t employ any of these practices. Rather, these are the unscrupulous practices of ABA accredited law schools.

    7. Team AAMPLE must be the third or fourth reincarnation of Mr. Infinity. No one else could possible be this inane. Since he graduated from Crooklyn, it all makes sense, anyway.

    8. @ 6:21

      I think what your trying to say is "No pain, No gain".


    On March 18, 2017 9:33 pm, JDU denizen “guyingorillasuit” started a thread labeled “Loan defaulters, you have been trumped.” Here is the original post:


    "Days after a report on federal student loans revealed a double-digit rise in defaults, President Trump’s administration revoked federal guidance Thursday that barred student debt collectors from charging high fees on past-due loans.

    The Education Department is ordering guarantee agencies that collect on defaulted debt to disregard a memo former President Barack Obama’s administration issued on the old bank-based federal lending program, known as the Federal Family Education Loan (FFEL) Program. That memo forbid the agencies from charging fees for up to 16 percent of the principal and accrued interest owed on the loans, if the borrower entered the government’s loan rehabilitation program within 60 days of default."

    Prepare your rears. Omar comin'. #MAGA.”

    User “turde” provided this response on March 18, 2017 at 10:06 pm:

    “Didn't go far enough. Bring back debtor's prison for those useless snowflakes.”

    Then “guyingorillasuit” made this comment on March 18, 2017 at 10:21 pm:

    “This is his position as a candidate:

    "Trump’s plan would also consolidate the current repayment programs in place and allow them to apply to both federal and private loans. (Currently, only federal student loans are eligible for income-driven repayment plans.) According to Trump, the new plan would be funded by reining in federal spending and the subsequent decrease in student loan defaults.

    “Students should not be asked to pay more on the debt than they can afford,” said Trump at the rally, “And the debt should not be an albatross around their necks for the rest of their lives.”

    His proposal is a radical shift to the current government programs. Today, borrowers have access to income-driven repayment plans such as Revised Pay As You Earn (REPAYE) and income-based repayment (IBR). But under those plans, the government does not forgive the balance of the debt until after 20-25 years of on-time payments."”

    Lastly accountholder “spaghetti” offered this gem on March 19, 2017 4:08 am:

    “I would bet all my loan balance that he did this knowing that about 75% of the people negatively affected by this voted for HRC.”

    This is pertinent since law school tuition has reached outrageous levels, and the lawyer job market is GLUTTED and shrinking. See what happens when you owe $110K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt and then default. You will soon join the ranks of the miserable cretins who graduated from an ABA-accredited trash heap – with $200K+ in student loans tied firmly around their necks.

    1. Throwaway AttorneyMarch 19, 2017 at 8:44 PM

      It's getting tougher and tougher to find any kind of sympathy for anyone taking on massive debt to attend shitholes like Thomas Jefferson, Touro or Cooley. Thanks to the scamblogs, even the stupidest of lemmings have all the information they need to know that attending joke law schools is a TERRIBLE decision.

      I still hope that Trump finds a way to cut off the student loan pipeline though. It's not fair to the American taxpayer to end up eating IBR loans when plenty of folks made the right choice not to borrow money for a worthless JD. Not counting on it happening, but it would definitely put about 50 law schools out of business in less than one week.

    2. Throwaway Attorney is right. Old Guy will no longer entertain any bitching about disastrous outcomes from people who enrolled in a US-based law school below Michigan's calibre in or after 2016. Instead, he will call the bitching party a goddamn fool.

      I've been denouncing the law-school scam for years, and other writers have been doing so even longer. Our work is readily available on the Internet; it has even been picked up by the mass media. Any lemming that isn't aware of it should be. I have no sympathy for people who go to toilet schools (90+% of the law schools). Fuck them all.

    3. F*ck them. In the a**. I pay my student loans with the money I earn at the factory job that I could have gotten straight out of high school. I put life on hold and I spend practically nothing, so I can make those debt balances decline.

      There is no reason not to know that law school is a scam. Especially the toilets like TJ, Arizona Summit, etc... No More Sympathy Remains....

    4. Exactly right, except those 590 schools would make their appear directly to Trump. Their logic is "Hey, Trump is a shyster, we're shysters, so we should all get along! We may make fun and say things about him behind his back, but surely he will bail us out...! We're in the same business...!"

    5. No sympathy, but I'll admit to being absolutely incredulous that anyone would take on any debt at all-let alone these levels-for places like Charlotte or Florida Coastal or TJ or any of the TTTs. After all the noble work of Nando, OG, and the others-the information is out there. It's a glutted field, period.
      That said, I do worry that the impending debt bomb will seriously harm the economy, leaving the taxpayers to once again foot the bill.

  11. Going to a shithole like Pace or NYLS and can't pass the bar or get a legal job? Fuck off. I got no sympathy for you.

  12. If those debt numbers aren't bad enough, just think of the interest. Anyone considering law school today must realize the cost and how it will paid off. If not, there will be no sympathy, no bankruptcy and no happiness for you. For most, I see nothing good coming out of being $150,000+ in debt and growing because of law school. It truly is a horrible way to start out life!

  13. Most advice I've seen about how much debt is reasonable to assume is no more than you expect to make your first year out of school (e.g. Don't borrow more than $50k if that's what you're expected to make at graduation). With the possible exceptions of NYU and Columbia, all of those schools fail this reasonable test by a mile. Even with Georgetown, you need to be a well above average student to land a $180k job out of school. For most law graduates, a $70k job with benefits that won't steal your soul is a fantasy, and that's less than half of what you'll have to borrow. Even if you can find a "decent" job, chances are, you've paid way too much for it.


    Back on December 9, 2016, the Student Loan Planner blog featured an article aptly entitled "The Verdict is in: Law School Student Debt is Criminally High." Check out this portion:

    "Any soon to be or newly minted JD can tell you that law school student debt is criminally high. However, the range of the offense is large and varies from 3rd degree misdemeanor to 1st degree murder. On one hand, there are law schools like University of Alabama, where new graduates have a little over $69,000 in student loans and salaries of $105,000 in the private sector. On the other, there are schools like Florida Coastal, where new graduates leave with over $160,000 in student loans and starting salaries of $45,000.

    I’ve done student debt consultations for general counsels at hospital systems, corporate lawyers at oil companies, government lawyers, and grads still seeking a JD required position. Your law school student debt strategy depends on what kind of job you have and how high your debt is relative to your income. Here are typical profiles I see during consults for law school student debt.

    Lawyer with Big Law Job

    If you look at the top law schools in the country, the cost of attendance is very high but most graduates also obtain a very high starting salary if they enter the private sector. As an example, Harvard Law grads start at $160,000 on average if they take a private sector job. They also graduate with almost $150,000 in law school student debt. Even though a Harvard Law degree is expensive, the average debt to income ratio is a manageable number at below 1.

    Unfortunately, there are problems with using an average to understand a population of borrowers in a widely varying distribution. Law school student debt certainly poses this statistical problem.

    One of my friends who attended a top law school graduated with around $230,000 in law school student debt, and he didn’t even live in a high cost of living metropolitan area. My guess is that his circumstances are similar to a huge percentage of students in law school who don’t have significant family contributions to their education.

    If you exclude the folks with less than $50,000 in loans, then the average law school debt number would soar."

    Still want to go to law school, Stupid?!?! Have you not bothered to do ANY research into the debt, shrinking market for attorneys, and the rise of LPOs and automation? If that is the case, then how in the hell are you in a position to competently represent other people in legal matters, bitch?!

  15. I saw New England Law School on that list. Never even heard of the fucking thing before. But seeing that on the list of debt leaders, it made me think Why would anyone go to a law school in Boston not named Harvard?

    Boston is an expensive city. Parking alone is costly. They don't call it Taxachusetts for nothing, people. And people are going to these shitty schools. Unfuckingbelievable.

  16. RE: Comments about medical school

    It's interesting that very few medical school graduates fail to get a medical license, even though the licensing exam is quite difficult. Why? Because medical school is hard. But very few students who start medical school drop out or flunk out. Why? Well, that's the important part: UNLIKE LAW SCHOOL IT'S HARD TO GET INTO MEDICAL SCHOOL IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! There are probably a number of reasons for this. Among them, the fact that it is expensive to train a physician. Medical schools rely on funding and revenue from a number of sources, not just tuition. Therefore to admit an applicant who does not end up graduating is a waste of precious resources.

    Whether it is deliberate or not, this "bottleneck" at the admissions process serves a very good purpose: To weed out individuals who are not smart enough to practice medicine. You see, medical school is mostly rote memorization. Therefore a person of average intelligence who works hard enough, gets enough tutoring, etc. could probably pass and maybe pass the licensure exams. But a person of "average intelligence" is not really smart enough to practice medicine well. So, as heartwarming as it would be to give "hard-working" students with mediocre GPA's and low MCAT scores who are in "catch-up" mode a chance, it's not a good idea. In medicine it is possible to be "hard working" and determined and right-minded and still be a crappy doctor. It's a hard pill to swallow, so to speak, but it's true. I see it all of the time.

    I'm not a lawyer, but I think the same applies to the practice of law. A mediocre student with a low LSAT score might be able to graduate from a TTT or TTTT school, and pass the bar exam after several tries. But is that person really smart enough to do a good job at practicing law? I say no, because I've seen the kinds of problems these dumb-ass lawyers can cause for their clients and for their communities.

    I don't know what would be a good solution to this problem. The ABA is obviously not going to do anything. I think the only thing that would work would be to take away the profit motive that drives this practice of accepting anybody and everybody into law school.

    1. My good Sir you are wrong. IT is not hard to get into medical school. Like AMMPLE even the Caribbean schools have conditional admissions programs for students who do not even make the cut.

      Then there are the med schools in east Europe.

      To become a US doctor many routes to get there.....

    2. Team AAMPLE, your ignorance apparently spans several professions. Just how many physicians who are graduates of "east" Europe medical schools get licensed in the US annually? Any idea-or any facts to support your barstool ramblings?


    Back on August 26, 2015, Staci Zaretsky posted an ATL entry labeled "How Are Lawyers Managing Their Law School Debt? Most Will Never Be Able To Pay It Off." Enjoy this portion:

    "Law schools across the country are welcoming new students this week, and there’s no better time than now to talk about the crippling debt they’ll have to face and attempt to pay down in the years to come. We mentioned last week that about two million Americans owe at least $100,000 in student debt, and with about $140,616 in debt per average law school graduate that borrowed to finance their degree, your brethren at the bar make up a very significant portion of that group.

    If you’d like to take a look at what your future may hold, check out this compilation of the average indebtedness of 2014 graduates who incurred law school debt, ranked by law school from highest to lowest, courtesy of U.S. News. There, you will see some truly frightening numbers — but perhaps they don’t seem so bad to you because after all, you know you’ll get a job that will pay well enough to service six figures of debt.

    We all were once that optimistic about our law school debt. Maybe you will be able to land that high-paying job… but maybe you won’t. The employment market for new law school graduates seems to have “improved” on its face, but that’s only because there have been fewer graduates to employ. We hope there will be actual improvements by the time you graduate, but even so, you’ll still have all of that debt to worry about.

    We reached out to our vast network of Twitter followers — largely composed of lawyers, law students, and legal professionals — to ask them the following three questions:

    1) How much law school debt do you have?
    2) Do you think you’ll ever pay it off?
    3) Why?

    The responses we received varied, with some hopeful that they’d be able to someday make a dent in their debt or completely pay it off, but others were faced with the stark reality that they’d never pay off their debts."

    Sadly, waterheads will continue to enroll in garbage heaps such as Pace, Tulane, and TTTThoma$ Jeffer$on Sewer of Law. After all, a law degree from any of those piles of excrement will show that you have "arrived," right?!?! Good luck paying back your immense student loan debt, while you are making $36K a year, Stupid.


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