Monday, April 10, 2017

You’re Welcome, Pigs: Law School Test Takers Increase, Yet the Number of Applicants Drops


http://www.law.com/sites/almstaff/2017/04/07/number-of-lsat-takers-is-up-but-law-school-applications-are-down/?slreturn=20170309232526

Beautiful News: On April 7, 2017, law.com posted a Karen Sloan piece that was entitled “Number of LSAT Takers is Up, But Law School Applications Are Down.” Check out this opening:

“This year’s Law School Admission Test cycle has come to a close, and the numbers are sending mixed messages about legal education’s current appeal. 

On the positive front, the number of people taking the LSAT in February increased 5.4 percent over the previous year, according to LSAT administrator the Law School Admission Council Inc. In fact, test takers were up during three of the cycle’s four testing dates, which saw a cumulative 3.3 increase nationally. The cycle kicked off in June 2016 and wrapped in February. 

But that increase in people sitting for the all-important admissions test has yet to translate into any boost in individuals actually applying to law school. In fact, the total number of applicants was down 1.9 percent as of March 31, when 87 percent of the final applicant count was in last year. 

That figure is unlikely to inspire enthusiasm among law school administrators, who have been hoping that that the applicant pool bottomed out in recent years and that the number of aspiring lawyers would at least hold steady if not tick up this cycle. 

“I don’t think we’re going to see a 5 percent application spike before the [fall admissions] cycle is over. It may be flat, at best,” said Jeff Thomas, executive director of pre-law programs at Kaplan Test Prep. He noted that the majority of applications have already been submitted for the upcoming academic year. 

More LSAT takers would seem to foreshadow more applicants, but that isn’t necessarily the case, said Derek Muller, a professor at Pepperdine University School of Law who writes about law school enrollment trends on his blog, Excess of Democracy. 

“Prospective students may take the LSAT, be disappointed in their score, and choose not to apply or choose other graduate options,” he said. “That may be a cycle-to-cycle thing, but it may be getting worse. If prospective law students believe they need to achieve X score to get into Y school, because that’s the only ‘good’ school according to their prelaw adviser, they may not apply at all if their scores come out too low.” 

Moreover, this year’s number may simply indicate an increase in people sitting for the LSAT multiple times in hopes of [earning] a higher score.” [Emphasis mine]

While DOZENS of desperate ABA-accredited toilets will now accept applicants with 145 LSAT scores, people are starting to recognize that the best they can hope to attain out of these cesspits is to end up representing broke bastards – for minimal pay. The fact remains that if you want decent job prospects coming out of law school, then you need to aim high. Otherwise, your employment outlook is limited from Day One. If your “strategy” is to do well at a dung heap – and transfer to a better school – then you are already behind the eight ball. Sadly, cretins will continue to sign on the dotted line at sewers.

https://lawschooltuitionbubble.wordpress.com/2017/04/05/lsat-tea-leaf-reading-february-2017-edition/

Other Coverage: On April 5, 2017, Matt Leichter posted a Law School Tuition Bubble entry labeled “LSAT Tea-Leaf Reading: February 2017 Edition.” Here is the full text of that article:

“Make that three administrations in a row that the number of LSAT takers has risen. At last, the LSAC has published the results of the February 2017 LSAT. 21,400 people took the test, up 5.4 percent from a year ago (20,301).

The four-period moving sum of LSAT administrations rose 1 percent to 109,354. By comparison, this administration year comes in slightly lower than 2012-13 (112,515). At the same time, the number of applicants is falling from last year, 1.9 percent lower than this time in 2016. As of now 55,100 people are projected to apply to law schools this year, but there may be a late surge in applicants as has tended to be the case in recent years. The number may be higher.

Although I’m still baffled why so many people would be interested in going to law school after such negative news in 2016, it’s even more surprising that more LSATs translates into fewer applicants. Perhaps LSAT takers are more strategic about their scores, which cautions against the hypothesis that the “wrong people” aren’t applying to law school (because, obviously, only high-LSAT scorers make good lawyers). So far, there’s no evidence of a Trump-induced surge in law-school interest. I’m confident that’s premature, but it’s something to bear in mind when the June LSAT takes place.” [Emphasis mine]

Still want to take the plunge, Dumbass?!?! Do you view this as a good opportunity to get into a decent law school, since many LSAT takers are eschewing this route? Well, unless your test score is high enough to get into an elite, name brand school, it doesn’t matter. If you get into a top 30 law school, that is good enough. The majority of your class is looking at toiletlaw and non-legal jobs.

Conclusion: It is great to see that people are starting to look more seriously into this vitally important FINANCIAL DECISION. They have figured out that it is not wise to enroll in piles of rot, especially when that will lead to them taking on an additional $155K+ in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt. Remember, the law school pigs will do and say whatever it takes to get more asses in seats. Then again, the bitches and hags are paid up front, in full – for minimal “work.” In stark contrast, the students will be on the hook for the next 20-30 years of their lives. Again, you are a mere mean$ to an end, i.e. giant sacks of federal student loan dollars.

29 comments:

  1. The word is out about law school. College grads are only going to law school if they can score high on the LSAT and get into an elite law school. Otherwise, they are pursuing other career options. This is only anecdotal evidence, but I have found that many people I met in undergrad and med school know that law school is a scam. I have had conversations with people who said law school was a scam so they choose med school instead. I have had conversations with people in med school who know that law schools churn out far more grads than jobs available. Smart people are staying away from toilet law schools.

    By the way, schools are starting to release employment statistics:

    Chicago Kent: 56% of grads were placed into full time, long term, bar passage required jobs. 7.4% of the class was unemployed. 14.4% of grads were in short term or part time jobs.

    Temple: 66.8% of grads in full time, long term, bar passage required jobs. 5.9% of the class was unemployed. 7.4% of grads were in short term or part time jobs.

    Notre Dame: Although 76% of Notre Dame grads managed to get full time, long term, bar passage required jobs, 11% of grads were unemployed. 3 grads were working in non-professional positions.

    Keep in mind, pig Ted Seto said this would be the year we would have a shortage of law grads! Jobs would be plentiful! Perhaps he meant Starbucks would see a shortage of applications for Barista positions from law grads. It’s never been easier to put that toilet JD to use at the local Meijer as a store clerk.

    Of course, graduates of elite schools had no trouble finding jobs:

    Stanford: 74.9% of grads were placed into law firms of 101+ attorneys or Federal clerkships. Stanford is the most transparent school about their grads in JD advantage/professional positions. 4% of grads went into tech, consulting, and banking. There were 2 unemployed grads.

    Yale: 72.95 of grads were placed into law firms of 101+ attorneys or Federal clerkships. There were 4 unemployed grads.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No trouble? One graduate in four from Stanford and Yale got neither Big Law nor a federal clerkship. That's not a great outcome, especially if the degree was financed with $300k of non-dischargeable debt at high interest.

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    2. You are right Old Guy, poor choice of words.

      Florida Coastal published their horrendous job statistics. 32.8% of the class of 2016 was unemployed 10 months after graduation. Only 36.1% obtained full time, long term, bar passage required employment. 16.4% of grads worked in part time or short term jobs. Many grads were unaccounted for. Not a single grad obtained a job with a firm of 101+ attorneys. Nor did any grads obtain a Federal clerkship. The Dean of Florida Coastal should go into politics. Because the Dean took those stats and made the claim that 87% of graduates who passed the bar obtained a job! See, Florida Coastal provides great opportunities. It's the evil bar examiners holding back the graduates!

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    3. Horrida Coastal's statistics truly are horrendous. A THIRD of the graduates of a professional school are unemployed ten months after graduation? Hell, that's several times the unemployment rate for the general public. People who allegedly have the aptitude for the legal profession are far more likely than the general public to face unemployment even after dropping more than a quarter of a million dollars on a law degree from Horrida Coastal? Jesus H. Christ on a fucking pogo stick.

      And not a single person last year came out of Horrida Coastal with the sort of job—Big Law or a federal clerkship—that offers a fair chance of supporting the payments on those student loans, at least for a few years. Essentially EVERYONE coming out of Horrida Coastal has a bad result.

      I'm sorry to report that at this point anyone signing up for Horrida Coastal is a goddamn moron. I absolutely refuse to entertain any sob stories from horrid Horridians.

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    4. I'll preface this with law school is a scam, but a lot of the truly elite grads go to boutiques these days. So small law out of Stanford or Yale is not the same as small law out of UCLA. This is a rather recent phenomenon.

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  2. Team AAMPLE here. Don’t be scared off into going to a T4 law school. Once you get that bar card, you can find work as:

    -tennis instructor
    -party planner
    -college fundraiser
    -parole officer.

    If your lucky, you can work in lingerie sales. My ex went to med school in the Caribbean, now she makes bank! Thats why you need to go to a T4 law school. Or Seton Hall or NYLS. You gotta pay to play. Plus, nobody in court knows were you went to law school. After I was arrested for prostitution in a Walmart bathroom, I hired an AAMPLE grad to handle my guilty plea. They did a fantastic job. Don’t worry about the debt. The government has options:

    -PSLF, err, maybe not. But there is:
    -IBR
    -PAYE
    -Plus debt forgiveness after 20 years, until the Federal government dumps that program too.

    Of course I am not a lawyer and never went to law school. I don’t think I can make it through character and fitness with my criminal record. But you definitely should take advice from me!

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    1. All kidding aside NYLS and Seton Hall are good schools. Judge Judy went to NYLS. Gov of NJ Christie went to Seton Hall. Yes there are too many law schools and graduates of law school. Doesn't meant that the lower tiers are bad in terms of education. If you are rich you go to ivy league. If you are poor you go everywhere else.

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  3. Check out Drake Law Dean Jerry Anderson's publications.

    How can you possibly say that "The Origins and Efficacy of Private Enforcement of Animal Cruelty Law in Britain" isn't critical, cutting edge legal scholarship?

    https://works.bepress.com/jerry_anderson/15/

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  4. Should I go to John Marshall or Loyola Chicago for law school? My girlfriend is pregnant with our first child. What would you do if you were me?

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    Replies
    1. We have answered these questions a million times. Nobody, but nobody, should go to John Marshall or Loyola in any city. The only law schools within three hours' drive of Chicago that you should even consider are the U of Chicago and maybe Northwestern. Since you clearly won't get into either of those, you should not go to law school.

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    2. I would fake my own death, and start a new life as a restaurateur in Belize.

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    3. If I were you I'd get a vasectomy (snip snip) and put that kid up for adoption. Stat. With some luck the child will go to a good family. Not an imbecile like you. If you're gonna keep the kid, be an adult and get a fucking job. If you were going to be some lawyer that time has passed you by. If the best schools you can get into are Loyola and John Marshall then you're just not cut out to be a lawyer. Those types of shit pits only exist to extract money from the taxpayers and dupes like yourself. There's no other reason for them to exist. They're not producing Biglaw types or future federal judges. And they charge an arm, a leg and an asshole in terms of tuition to boot. The job market is shit and that's not changing anytime soon. If anything it's gonna get worse. Why hire a loser from a shit law school when you can purchase some software?

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    4. 4:01 is most likely a troll. But to anyone reading this actually contemplating these schools, why would you go into $100k+ debt and give up three years of your life to attend a low ranked, terrible law school? Especially if you have a child on the way. Loyola and John Marshall give you about a 50% chance of getting a legal job according to their 2016 employment statistics. A significant number of grads were unemployed or took part time/short term jobs. Just check out their latest job statistics.

      Why go to a toilet law school, when you will just end up back in your old job or end up working in a non-legal job? If you are going to gamble on higher education, then get an MBA. You’ll save a year of your life and borrow less money. If you are in a desperate situation and need to figure out how to support your kid, I hate to support the military industrial complex, but perhaps you should join the military. You can avoid the front lines by taking non-combat jobs in the Army, or you can join the Air Force or Navy. You have a college degree, so you can be an officer. You would be surprised how much officers make after a few years of service and a promotion. The pay tables are on DFAS. You get extra money for housing, food, and for having a family. You get health insurance for your dependents. If you serve ten years, you can transfer your GI bill benefits to your children. Joining the military would be far more responsible and beneficial to your family than going into hundreds of thousands in debt for a garbage degree.

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    5. Ancient Chinese saying:
      Not even Cooley hires Cooley grads.

      Delete
  5. I would hope and pray that your unborn child is smarter then either of its parents!

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    Replies
    1. Maybe I can get into airline passenger law. I wanna fight for justice!

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  6. In related news, February 2017 bar exam scores are being released. In Pennsylvania only about 55 percent of all examinees passed the bar.

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    Replies
    1. That's really sad.

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    2. Florida's overall pass rate for the Feb 2017 bar was 57.7%. Florida Coastal's pass rate was a jaw-dropping 25% to match Charlotte's.

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    3. It runs in the InfiLaw family.

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  7. Additional PA Bar/Bar Exam info. for February 2017:
    Average PA MBE: 136+
    National MBE: 134+

    Test takers sitting for the second time or more: 43.66 pass rate.

    PA law schools' rates for test takers sitting for the second time or more:

    53% Temple
    50% Widener ("Harrisburg" campus)
    49% Widener ("Delaware" campus)
    48% Drexel
    42% Duquesne

    And across the river from Philly:
    46% Rutgers Law School.

    Rah, rah, Rutgers rah.

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  8. http://thepavlovictoday.com/naked-opinion/lsat-scores-accurate-determining-successful-law-school-candidates/

    On March 27, 2017, Ayushi Patel posted a Pavlovic Today entry entitled "Are LSAT Scores Accurate In Determining Successful Law School Candidates?" Look at this portion:

    "Do the advantages of the LSAT outweigh the disadvantages?

    Despite all of the hassle of preparing and taking the LSAT, there is evidence that shows a positive correlation between LSAT performance and law school performance. There is also evidence that shows how students who have high LSAT scores tend to be more likely to pass the bar exam. In the case of Harvard, for example, the median LSAT score in 2014 was 173, with 94.3% of first-time test takers passing the bar exam. From the 11 schools with the highest LSAT scores, on average, grads beat their state in passing the bar by 29%!

    It is important to note that while these studies may show a positive correlation between these two variables, we need to keep in mind that there could be other factors at play that could also affect bar passage rates. For example, top schools tend to prepare their students for the bar better than lower-tier schools.

    It may be the case that the high pressure of the LSAT exam, as well as the other exams in law school, are effective predictors of a candidate’s ability to be a successful lawyer. If we consider a prospective law student who does not do well on law exams, it is reasonable to assume that he or she is less likely to succeed in court, which is also a high-pressure situation, except, in that case, a person’s life could be on the line."

    I love how these articles point out that some people with poor LSAT scores can go on to become successful attorneys. Of course that happens. You also see men and women with average looks become great actors. Hell, some guys who played Division II sports have stellar professional careers. But the odds are against them. Do you want to be the idiot with $187,327.20 in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, for a law degree from TTTThoma$ Jeffer$on Sewer of Law - because you think that you are so special?!?!

    ReplyDelete
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    1. "For example, top schools tend to prepare their students for the bar better than lower-tier schools."

      If this means that top schools offer better training aimed specifically at passing the bar exams, it is false. The top schools tend not to offer any such training at all, whereas the lousiest schools often incorporate it into the curriculum (all six semesters at Indiana Tech!).

      Why do the top schools fare so much better on the bar exams? Because of the quality of their students and graduates. (The LSAT is one useful measure of that.) Harvard's graduates, in the main, can pass the bar exams without help from their law school. Cooleyite dipshits, however, will always be Cooleyite dipshits no matter how much bar review and other support they receive.

      And success on the LSAT and in court depends not only on the capacity to withstand pressure but also on general intellectual ability and competence. Quite frankly, I don't feel much pressure in court—because I am always well prepared and can handle anything that comes at me. The ones who complain of pressure tend to be the ones who don't know what the hell they're doing.

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  9. Low bar passage rates continuing.

    That's one of those correlation thingies where the skools let in dumber and dumber people. And then those dumb people become dumb graduates who can't pass the bar'zam. See how that works?

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  10. 11 years. The nightmare lasted 11 years. I lost 11 years of my life on law school and student loan debt.

    It's all over! Special thanks to Nando and the beautifully cynical bastards in the comments section for the harsh doses of reality. Couldn't have dug out if I'd stayed in Law, I had to give up in order to conquer.

    Triumph: My Last Student Loan Payment!
    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/triumph-my-last-student-loan-payment-steven-waechter

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    Replies
    1. Steven,

      Great article! And that is a tremendous accomplishment. Also, that picture of you lighting up a cigar with your Legi$laTTTive PracTTTice certificate is classic!

      It's also ironic that you worked hard at a factory job to pay off your law school and college student loans. I am happy for you, and I hope others take heed of your story and advice. And thank you for telling the truth about the legal "profession" and "legal education" in this country. At least, more undergraduates are starting to understand the scam. It's about damn time.

      http://abovethelaw.com/2017/04/recent-grads-are-drowning-in-debt-think-its-too-easy-to-get-into-law-school/

      Delete
  11. As more and more people avoid law school, schools are going to accept a higher percentage of applicants. Meaning the entering numbers will be down. And this will result in lower bar passage rates (as long as state bar examiners hold the line). And tuition will keep going up. Yeah it's really super duper smart to go to law school nowadays.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It will be interesting to see if the bar examiners do indeed hold the line. I have a friend who is heavily involved with the state bar here and he said no one is talking about making the bar exam easier because, as he put it, "no one is complaining that there aren't enough lawyers."

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  12. http://abovethelaw.com/2016/05/fewer-law-school-graduates-did-not-translate-into-more-jobs/

    Don't forget this blurb from Staci Zaretsky of ATL, from May 17, 2016. It was labeled "Fewer Law School Graduates Did NOT Translate Into More Jobs." Enjoy:

    "Despite the collapse in law school applications since 2010, today’s smaller graduating classes are not finding an easier entry into the legal profession — and possibly into any profession at all. Undoubtedly, demand for lawyers is still a problem, but so is the continued structural oversupply of law students and law schools.

    — Matt Leichter of The Last Gen X American (né The Law School Tuition Bubble), commenting on the employment statistics for the law school class of 2015. Leichter notes that while 3,772 fewer people graduated from ABA-accredited law schools in 2015 (excluding the three law schools in Puerto Rico), the number of those employed in jobs requiring a law degree fell by approximately 2,000. Leichter further commented on the fact that a large number of JD-advantage jobs, professional jobs, and non-professional jobs seemed to have simply disappeared."

    Yes, what a tremendous and thriving "profession," huh?!?! At this point, if you are enrolling in a non-elite law school, then you deserve your fate.

    ReplyDelete

 
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