Saturday, July 1, 2017

Mainstream Media Outlets Ask “Still Want to Go to Law School, Dumbass?”


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/06/28/law-schools-hunkering-down-enrollment-slips/430213001/

Time to Reconsider: On June 28, 2017, USA Today published a piece from reporter Greg Toppo, under the headline “Why you might want to think twice before going to law school.” Take a look at the following excerpt:

“Future lawyers, heed this. Whittier's demise could be a sign of things to come. 

As several trends hit the law profession — fewer graduates, fewer jobs and the specter of growing automation in legal services — experts say more law schools could take a hit. 

For young lawyers in all but the most elite schools, jobs are already harder to find. While a newly minted Harvard, Yale or Stanford Juris Doctor (JD) will nearly always find security and top-paying work, those attending non-rated or poorly rated schools will struggle as their profession contracts. Even students at moderately rated schools could see their prospects shrink, statistics suggest.” [Emphasis mine]

Did that information come from an angry scamblogger? Hell, this data has been FREELY AVAILABLE for damn near a decade. If you cannot bother to do ten minutes of research regarding the law school gamble, then how do expect to competently represent other people – or companies – in important legal matters?!?! Oh that’s right; you’re “special.”

Scroll down for this nugget:

“As corporate legal departments and law firms operate under growing pressure to cut costs, technology is also displacing young lawyers who in years past would have spent their days doing research. Online startups like LegalZoom, Avvo and LawDingo, many of which also match clients with lawyers, are automating “low-level lawyerly tasks” — not just research, but contracts and wills, among other tasks, [Michael] Horn said. 

“E-discovery” tools are also getting more sophisticated, further reducing the need for humans. 

Automation, Horn said, is “basically making lawyers within big firms more productive, so it’s reducing the need to bring in first-year lawyers, as you did in the past.”

Andrew M. Perlman, dean of Suffolk University Law School in Boston, noted a “significant decline” in the number of students applying to law schools overall, with the market for new lawyers “adjusting to what I think is a ‘new normal.’” 

Technology, he said, “will not make lawyers obsolete, but there will probably be fewer opportunities for lawyers in the future.” [Emphasis mine]

Lemmings, when you are not too busy being dumb, look up Moore’s law. $omehow, this has not yet displaced "law professors" - but administrators will at least consider this route, at some point. Make sure to take a nap after taxing your little pea brain. Of course, Cockroach Andrew Perlman feels that it’s actually “a great time” to enter this gutter “profession.” Then again, the bastard is making a fat salary off of his stupid law students!

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/21/6-questions-to-ask-yourself-before-you-go-to-law-school.html

Ask Yourself: On June 21, 2017, CNBC posted a Leah Ginsburg article entitled “6 questions to ask yourself if you think you want to go to law school.” Here is one small sample:

“But is law school right for you? CNBC spoke with Laura Hosid, law school admissions and career counselor, about the questions you should ask yourself first. 

Why do you want to go to law school?

The biggest mistake people make is going for no good reason or for the wrong reasons, says Hosid. So if it's because you think it looks fun or you want to be rich, you might want to think again… 

Similarly, the idea that being a lawyer will make you rich is off-base, says Hosid. "There are actually a lot, a lot, a lot of jobs that … don't make a lot of money," she says. According to U.S. News & World Report, the median private sector salary was $68,300, and the median public sector salary was $52,000 among J.D. recipients in the class of 2015 at ranked law schools. Only 35 law schools of the 197 ranked reported median private sector salaries in the six figures.” [Emphasis mine]

Keep in mind those figures are based on who responds to the graduate surveys. And those who ended up making $35K in a garbage job tend not to report their weak-ass income – out of a sense of shame. Plus, there is nothing to stop a chump from claiming that he earns $170K per year. Do you think that an ABA-accredited toilet is going to look into such matters?

Also, for $ome rea$on, those without jobs 10 months after earning their law degree are not included in the stats. This further skews the average reported starting salary for new JDs. Imagine how those figures – at each commode - would be reduced with several incomes of zero thrown into the mix. By the way, the schools get away with not taking these into account – as if they are outliers. However, if a large portion of every single damn class remains unemployed – or working in various capacities for free – how the hell can anyone argue that these graduates are an exception?

Conclusion: The CNBC coverage also noted the following: “The truth is, a law degree from a school ranked below the top 14-to-25 does not open the same doors as a degree from a top tier institution[.]” If this strikes you as news, then you have not done any significant research into this important FINANCIAL decision that WILL affect the rest of your life, waterhead. On that note, good luck passing the bar exam, landing numerous paying clients, and having a successful legal career – especially if you graduated from a third tier commode or fourth tier trash pit. Employers can smell the stench of your toilet from a mile away, genius.

33 comments:

  1. If you are a college student considering a $200k+ gamble on law school, consider that there are better ways to gamble on your future. Before there was any information available on the law school scam, I gambled on a toilet law school and lost. Trust me, there was no recent downturn in the legal market. Before the great recession, legal employers were not hiring toilet law grads. But law schools reported false job stats, enticing students to enroll. This allowed the schools to astronomically raise tuition. After the great recession, the greedy law schools continued to lie and report all grads were employed making $100k. Skeptical scambloggers called out the law schools for lying, questioning how the recession had no impact on graduate employment. Soon afterward, the ABA required law schools to stop lying about graduate outcomes and report truthful stats. The truthful stats turned out to be horrendous. The law schools spun the pitiful job stats, blaming the recession and promising an imminent recovery in the legal market. Countless predictions from the pig law deans and professors never came true.

    I wasted time and money on a worthless law degree and pursued a career that never materialized. I ended up attending a U.S. med school. Do not attend one of these terrible law schools. Pursue a career in medicine. U.S. MD programs are very competitive. But you can still attend a DO program or a Caribbean med school. Gambling on a Caribbean med school is far safer than gambling on a U.S. law school.

    All of the information on the medical profession is publicly available. This year, there were 27,860 residency positions available to med school graduates. There were 18,539 graduates of U.S. med schools (take note that U.S. med schools graduate far fewer students than residency positions, to ensure their grads obtain a residency). The remaining positions were filled by grads of foreign medical schools and DO programs. There were more active applicants than positions available though. A total of 35,969 active applicants vied for residency positions. While 94.3% of U.S. med grads obtained a residency, only 54.8% of grads of foreign med schools obtained a residency. You have a far better chance of having a professional career as a grad of a foreign med school than as a grad of a toilet law school. There are numerous second tier toilet law schools that can only place half their grads into FT, LT, BP required jobs.

    The medical profession is nowhere near as focused on prestigious credentials like the legal profession. I have been taught by graduates of foreign medical schools and DOs. They are great doctors that teach, save lives, and do research. If you attend a foreign medical school, you would for all intents and purposes be precluded from becoming a neurosurgeon, orthopedic surgeon, plastic surgeon, and entering other competitive specialties. But this year for instance, only 45% of family medicine residency positions, 45% of internal medicine residency positions, and 50% of neurology residency positions were filled by U.S. Seniors. The remaining positions were filled by graduates of foreign medical schools, DOs, or they went unfilled. If you have realistic goals and pursue one of these specialties, you would have a very good chance of having a real career. You would earn more than a big law associate, work less hours than a big law associate, and not have to worry about losing your job after a few years like a big law associate – a legal job that almost all toilet law grads have no chance of getting! If you enter internal medicine, you can also pursue a career in some of the most prestigious and some of the highest paid medical specialties. For instance, you could pursue a career in cardiology or gastroenterology. Only 55% of cardiology fellowships and 63% of gastroenterology fellowships were filled by grads of U.S. med schools.

    Don’t make the mistake I made. Do not waste your time and money pursuing a JD. If you are going to gamble on education, gamble on a foreign med school before gambling on a toilet law school.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Who needs sub par Doctors? Only encourage people who are fit for Med school.

      Delete
  2. If Upton Sinclair's The Jungle been printed later no doubt one of Jurgis's shitty jobs for low pay would've been as a lawyer.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Keep in mind that most of the attorneys starting in Big Law will get moved out in 4-8 years. These associates are aware of this and are already trying to cultivate contacts in business, government or boutique law firms for future job prospects.

    Then there are plenty of talented lawyers who went inactive to raise a family, try a start up, take a break etc but would like to get back in the legal game.

    Bottom line, there are so many layers of labor competition in the legal field that even with reduced JD production, it would take about two lifetimes for the market to resemble anything close to justifying the time and expense of law school.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And, from OSTLSS, a Just-in-Time comment on just this:

      http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2017/06/applicants-up-15-for-2017-at-least.html?showComment=1499025963915#c2166069535269755596

      Anonymous July 2, 2017 at 2:06 PM

      Responding to the two commentators immediately above, applications would drop much further if the ongoing employment statistics for law school grads were available.

      It is very significant that the top law schools rely heavily on limited term jobs like clerkships and jobs with experience limits like big law firm associate. Now that the Supreme Court has denied cert in the Villarreal v RJ Reynolds case, we can expect these experience limits as to hiring lawyers to proliferate not only in law firm jobs, but also for in house jobs. Now it is totally lawful at least under federal law to refuse to hire a lawyer with more than a given number of years of experience.

      The instability of jobs in the legal profession and now the legality of experience limits that keep lawyers over the age of 40 from being hired in new jobs spells trouble for the legal profession. Instability and omnipresent experience limits on open jobs is going to make law a less and less desirable career path.

      Once you lose a job as a lawyer and you are more than a few years out of law school, the deck is stacked against you, the more experienced you are. A lot of lawyers are losing jobs today.

      Everybody is going to start to discover the dirty little secret of law - that it is very hard to stay employed as a lawyer in full-time permanent work if you hare not in the government.

      Delete
  4. I know a girl who
    Went to law school
    She's got so much debt
    She don't know what to do

    So she burned her law degree with gasoline.

    Gasoline.

    Gasoline.

    I know a boy who
    Graduated from a second tier law school
    He's owes two hundred thousand
    He's such a fool
    He can't get laid
    So he jacks off
    With vaseline

    Vaseline

    Vaseline

    ReplyDelete
  5. The right reason for attending law school boils down to a very narrow set of criteria that has been repeated ad nauseum on this and other sites.

    Do not attend unless:

    1. You're already rich and connected.

    2. You get into a top 8 law school on scholarship.

    3. You get an unconditional full-ride scholarship at a state flagship.

    Other than that, law school is simply not worth the expenditure in time, money and risk. At least 100 law schools are nothing more than jokes at this point, and should be avoided even if you come from money. There are far better things to do with one's life than waste it in this shit business.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Drop criteria 2 and 3. Law school nowadays is only for the hereditary aristocracy.

      Delete
    2. Agreed.

      #3 isn't really debt-free or without cost either.

      There's still 3 years lost (opportunity cost) and you will be worse off if you graduate outside the top 5% of the class. The law degree will close doors to non-legal jobs and you will be no better off than other law graduates, forced to compete in a field where there are ~3 graduates for every one available job. You will be in the same boat, competing for scraps in toilet law - if you can even get that.

      And, law is all about pedigree. State flagships usually don't sell that..

      As far as foreign med schools, 54% is only slightly better than a coin flip at securing a match for a residency - and these schools are just as expensive as US schools.

      Medicine and even dentistry are worthwhile when your Mom or Dad is a doctor. I've read articles stating that even dentistry has become a field where you are much more likely to become one if you have a parent who is already one, etc. Same with medicine.

      In short, all these professions are 'aristocracy professions' behind the scenes. The gatekeepers try to gloss over and hide this fact but the data is out there if you care to Google it.

      As far as medical school, I just saw an article today that ~29000 matched while ~9000 didn't. That's 24% - or ~ 1/4 - not matching. Granted, most of the non-matches are likely foreign but even so. The point is. the same amount of money was spent on the education, just like law. Harvard charges more, slightly, than Cooley, etc.

      https://www.statnews.com/2016/03/17/medical-students-match-day/

      As far as a Top 8, that's still the same problem 2-5 years out. The PPC will get the promotions due to connections or slide into gov't jobs while the non-connected T8 have to struggle without family wealth or connections backing them.

      Graduates like J. Wang and W. Meyerhofer should, by #2's criteria, have no trouble with a successful career in law. Yet, it appears this is not the case.

      No, you need to be Part of the Club. It's that simple. Anything else is gambling for serious money and your financial future.

      Delete
    3. State flagships vary greatly. An insuperable divide separates Berkeley and Michigan from North Dakota and South Dakota. The only flagships that are worth considering even in principle are Berkeley, Michigan, and Virginia. Even those, with tuition waived, are risky to non-aristocrats. So, for that matter, are Harvard and Yale. See this article of mine:

      https://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.ca/2017/05/the-seven-tiers-of-law-schools.html

      Leave these "professions" to Kennedy V and Bush IX and Rockefeller XIII. However lousy, they'll get in while some such nobody as Old Guy I is left out in the cold.

      Delete
    4. I've been practicing law for 25 years. While I discourage anyone from attending law school these days, I would disagree with reason number 3. An unconditional free ride from a flagship law school would be worth pursuing. Yes, there will be debt accrued such as living expenses during the three years of school - food, rent etc. But living expenses happen even without school. The real reason not to go to law school at all is the quality of life for most lawyers. The work is difficult and stressful. There are better ways to make a living. Do what you like to do and life will be more rewarding.

      Delete
  6. I shouldn't have gone into law. I was a goddamn fool.

    God damn me. God damn me.

    ReplyDelete
  7. 3:24 PM, that is a pretty good estimation of the state of legal education today.

    It really is a cold calculation.

    The risk really has to fall into a manageable range. There are anecdotal successes outside this range, but no student can count on that. Instead, a lifetime of debt will most likely result, adversely affecting marriage prospects, home ownership, standard of living, etc.

    To attend a TTT is a total crapshoot; anyone doing so needs to drop the hell out if First Year grades are outside the top 10%. Those who end up succeeding in this environment could probably do so in another field, outperforming their sh!tlaw counterparts and doing so without the debt!

    ReplyDelete
  8. "But this year for instance, only 45% of family medicine residency positions, 45% of internal medicine residency positions, and 50% of neurology residency positions were filled by U.S. Seniors. The remaining positions were filled by graduates of foreign medical schools, DOs, or they went unfilled."

    ---------------------------------------

    Which only proves that the medical profession is just as big a scam as law only in a slightly different way.

    They are keeping wages high due to artificial scarcity. They don't care about the public, or medicine, just money.

    Where the Scams are similar: In both law and medicine - schools got their money, in full, up-front.

    Where the Scams differ: In medicine, AMA protects its members' wages through artificial scarcity at the expense of the public - patients waiting for care, etc. sometimes for weeks/months.

    In law, low wages, few new jobs. Bar admission for basically anyone with lower standards coming down the pike for various states.

    In *both* cases, the public suffers.

    Typical Aristocracy professions.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yep. Doctors are scum. Mobsters have more honor than dignity than the most pristine physician or specialist. And I'm not just referring to the higher ups in the mob. I mean even the lowliest street tough has more honor than a doctor.

      Delete
    2. Sorry, but no-and I'm not a physician. When I was in the military, not a single physician would qualify as "aristocracy"; they were very smart hard-working men and women who couldn't afford medical school so they joined the military to pay for it-nothing aristocratic about that. They did their four years-it's a one year paid/one year active duty requirement deal-treating military and then got out. If they were aristocrats, the military is the last place they would be.

      Delete
    3. Oh, is that so, 7-3-17 @ 7:06PM?

      Well, shove this article up your "cakehole", as the Brits would say:

      https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/22/medical-school-students-wealthy-backgrounds

      And, those people you saw getting their med school paid for by the military are not the majority, by far.

      Those are the "poor" kids who have to do it because Mommy and Daddy won't - or more likely can't.

      There may be a few among that group that are indeed from wealthy families. I'd wager and Mom and Dad have some civic conscience about them - or are just being pricks. I.e. Bill Gates would absolutely do this to his kids. He's leaving them no part of his fortune as far as I know.

      If it's this way in the UK, you can be sure that the US is the same way, as the UK's colonial offspring. The Revolution never ended class in America only fealty to Great Britain.

      And in Canada:

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1232537/pdf/cmaj_163_1_13.pdf

      So, sorry.. but yes.

      I learned: America is in no way a meritocracy. Unless you are born wealthy and from the right family, success does not often come easily - if at all.

      Many people who post on this forum are hard-working and intelligent. But that doesn't really correlate very much with success.

      Family wealth and station, on the other hand, correlate very, very highly with it.

      Delete
    4. Are you pathologically incapable of reading English, 11:07? This is the USA, not Canada or England-and more important, both of those countries have entirely different medical systems(e.g. National Health in Britain). And yes, these physicians join the military b/c they can't afford to pay for medical school-but the fact they were accepted and are working as physicians is evidence that merit, in medicine, is a factor.
      Next time, use the medical school and health service statistics from Czarist Russia; they'll be just as applicable as the nonsense you rely on.

      Delete
    5. No. I don't care about your moronic observations. Because that's what they are: moronic.

      Both those pieces state, flat-out, that the majority of applicant's come from very wealthy backgrounds. Did you actually bother to *read* the title about UK medical school students? Probably not..

      And Canada, top percentiles of income!! Top, not near the top, top.

      But none of that matters because, in your lame-ass mind, the systems of medical school are structured differently. Do tell!

      Family wealth is the central issue, not how the medical systems of the countries are structured, dipshit.

      I subsequently posted links on the experiences of an Indian medical student at a US medical school and her experiences support this FACT.

      The only reason those people were in the military was to avoid the following outcome:

      http://jdunderground.com/all/thread.php?threadId=135357#post10307066

      "MERIT MATTERS!! CAW! CAW!
      CAW! CAW!"

      Nope, not as much as you think.. Maybe 5.5% of the time - if that.

      And not only is he fucked. His Poors-class parents are fucked along with him.

      Ah, if he only came from money, none of this would've happened..

      As a Poor, he should've known better.

      But that's at least 5 minutes more research than you ever did on the subject. More like 30, actually.

      So because you saw some people in the military getting their med school paid for, you pull the Merit card.

      I'd love to believe that. But I know better. That's the same crap philosophy that leads TTT JD's down the Path of Ruin.

      I said: A few Poors each year Beat the System. That doesn't disprove the existence of the System or how it works.

      Delete
  9. The article mentioned that automation is reducing the demand for lawyers. That is one reason. I'm a paralegal in a law firm and another reason for reduced demand for lawyers is reliance on paralegals. Where I work, the paralegals are instructed by attorneys to draft and file motions and other legal documents. If a non-attorney can do the work, the work is given to a non-attorney. This cut costs for the owner of the law firm: instead of employing-- lets say-- two attorneys, the firm employs one attorney and one paralegal, saving at least $20,000 in salary and benefits a year for the firm.
    The job prospects of paralegals is pretty good, average income is around $48,000 (source: http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/paralegal/salary)
    and one doesn't have to take on $100,000 in debt.

    ReplyDelete
  10. http://www.nalp.org/uploads/Membership/EmploymentfortheClassof2015SelectedFindings.pdf

    Look at the NALP report entitled "Employment for the Class of 2015 - Selected Findings." Check out this opening:

    "The employment outcomes findings for members of the Class of 2015 depict an entry-level legal employment market that is remarkably flat by almost every measure, and, with a few notable exceptions, in most aspects looks exactly like the employment profile of the previous graduating class. One of the things that sets this class apart is that they secured fewer private practice jobs than any class since 1996.

    At 86.7%, the employment rate is exactly the same as the one measured for the Class of 2014, and is two full percentage points higher than it was for the Class of 2013, the class that had the lowest overall employment rate following the recession. (Importantly, the employment data for the last two classes were collected as of March 15, approximately ten months after a typical May graduation, and therefore these figures are not directly comparable with the employment rates for the classes that immediately preceded them, as those data were collected as of February 15.)

    An important piece of the jobs picture for the Class of 2015 is that the class was substantially smaller than the two classes that preceded it. Indeed the size of the graduating class has fallen by nearly 7,000 graduates over the last two years, from 46,776 for the Class of 2013 to just 39,984 for the Class of 2015. Perhaps not surprisingly,this smaller class found fewer jobs than the class before it. The actual number of jobs found by this class was down by more than 3,000 compared with the Class of 2014.

    In fact the actual number of jobs obtained went down in every sector except the largest law firms of more than 500 lawyers. Members of this class secured just 17,168 jobs in law firms of any size, down by nearly 3,500 since the number of those jobs peaked for the Class of 2007."

    Still want to take the TTT plunge, moron?!?! The job market is still garbage - and this is certainly the case for graduates of low-ranked toilets.

    ReplyDelete
  11. I don't recommend law skool to anyone who doesn't have deep pockets (family money) or who doesn't have extensive political connections. A terrible fucking gamble for anyone else.

    ReplyDelete
  12. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/04/the-wrong-people-have-stopped-applying-to-law-school/255685/

    Hell, back on April 10, 2012, the Antlatic published a Jordan Weissmann piece headlined "The Wrong People Have Stopped Applying to Law School." Enjoy this excerpt:

    "Among the many unfortunate developments in higher education over the past decade, one of the most talked about has been the law school bubble. In the heat of the recession, a record number of students decided that it would be a good idea to dive six-figures into debt for a shot at a legal career. Many were lured with utterly misleading job placement stats, as well as a stubborn misperception that law was still a safe career choice, that a J.D. even guaranteed a living wage. Once they graduated, many realized otherwise.

    Last month, the Law School Admissions Council (a.k.a., LSAC) published data indicating that the bubble finally seemed to have popped -- a merciful development, as I put it at the time. The number of LSAT tests administered has plummeted over the past two years, and fewer students are accepting admission. This is a happy turn of events. The fewer grads being funneled into an super-saturated industry, the better. (Full disclosure: I used to work for a law firm.)


    Yesterday, LSAC released a new bit of evidence* that law school has finally lost its luster. Applicants are down more than 15 percent for the year. But there's one problem: The wrong students have stopped applying.

    Take a look at the chart below, which shows the number of applications from prospective students in each LSAT range for 2012. Here's the take away: The number of students applying who probably have no business going to law school has dropped the least. The number of students applying who probably should be going to law school has dropped the most."

    Those with LSAT scores of 170 or higher avoided law school at a MUCH higher clip than the cretins who "achieved" a 144 on the test. And you wonder why so many morons end up owing $175K+ in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt - and have such piss poor employment prospects.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Here's 2 more articles on the aristocracy of medical school:

    http://in-training.org/wanna-go-medical-school-better-rich-12070

    Note the following passage:

    "Indeed, for a profession that aims to promote diversity, the lack of economic diversity is embarrassing. No more than 5.5 precent of matriculating students are from the bottom two quintiles of parental income."

    And this passage from:

    http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/05/medical-school-just-rich-kids.html

    "An African medical student just visited our tribe. His family has seven servants. Barely 23, he owns two planes. They’re small planes. One seats two people and the other seats four, I think. He’s the kind of person who gets into med school with affirmative action, not me."

    ------------------------------------

    Bingo!

    The Rich Get Richer. Same as it ever was..

    A few Poors are "allowed" in each year, some through the service, etc. but they're just One-Off's..

    The Aristocracy owns and controls the levers of power and success in America and sadly, most likely always will.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you for those links, sir. Here is another notable excerpt from that medical student board post from Poorna Sreekumar. For everyone else, it's from September 14, 2016 - and it is labeled "Wanna Go To Medical School? You Better Be Rich!" These words cut through all the nonsense:

      "While it’s true that a majority of medical students choose to take out a loan to cover tuition and living expenses, the impact of parental wealth and education status goes beyond just paying for medical school. According to data collected by the AAMC, a majority of medical students have parents with graduate degrees. Another report shows that the median family income of matriculating students is $100,000. To put that into perspective, the median family income at the time of the report in 2006 was $48,451. Most medical students come from the top two quintiles of family income, meaning they’re some of the most privileged members of society.

      For many people in the lower income quantiles, college is expensive enough as it is. Why would they choose to pursue another, even more expensive post-graduate degree? Even if most physicians eventually end up making six figure salaries, it’s usually in their 30s and coupled to a six figure debt. For the students that do decide to step foot on the path to medicine, they sometimes find that they just can’t keep up with their more economically advantaged peers.

      Students from more privileged backgrounds can afford to go to more competitive colleges. They can afford private tutoring when they struggle with classes. Because their parents are professionals, these students also have access to initial jobs and internships based on the strength of their connections. This makes it much easier for them to check off boxes on the seemingly endless list of volunteer activities, shadowing, research and leadership positions. Much of this work is also unpaid which means these activities aren’t always feasible for people paying their way through school. They’d need to use that precious time after class to do paid work, which doesn’t leave a lot of room for more eye-catching extracurriculars like cancer research or going on a global medical brigade trip to Peru."

      Much of this applies to those who want to be lawyers in this country. When the Career Development Office pigs at your school host some lame-ass “networking” event, keep in mind that the attorneys who appear are often there for the cheese and alcohol. These artificial settings attract struggling solos and toiletlaw practitioners. Furthermore – and this is the key – you don’t actually know these people! How the hell are you supposed to approach them for a job?! And why should they hire you, especially if business is slow? This is the ultimate cold calling venture.

      Real connections with successful people lead to good jobs or investment opportunities. That is because they know you or your family well. They are familiar with your work product and quality. Countless legions are capable of “working hard,” and they do so on a daily basis. Perhaps, you spent summers together or played on the same Little League team as their children. Wealthy people go to the same county clubs, enroll their kids in private schools, and hang in small circles. If you are part of that exclusive club, then you will get first pick of damn near everything – even if you are not that intelligent or industrious. By virtue of coming out of the right vagina, other rich people figure that you must be worthy.

      Delete
    2. Most of big law and federal clerkship recruiting right out of law school is based on the name of a lawyer's law school, his or her grades and whether he or she is on law review. Beginning and end of story.

      Sure, clients may recommend people, and people may be friends of the senior partner, but big law and clerkship recruiting out of law school is only based on those relationships at the margins.

      First year hiring is a merit system with not too much leeway for connections. Been there and done that.

      Maybe you have the son of a billionaire real estate developer who went to UCLA working at a big NY firm for a couple of years before he goes into the family business or the son of a Canadian client. Those people are rare however. Some might have gotten the same job without the relationship - who knows?

      Delete
  14. And one last thread - and I am now really beating a dead horse but the last is definitely the best read:

    http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/89943-ever-feel-like-med-school-is-a-big-rich-kids-club/



    I seriously doubt that this is due to selection via admission policies. It's most likely because they were raised in more academically supportive environments - i.e. parents are well educated (correlated to higher household incomes), education was encouraged and rewarded in the household, etc. It is a step by step process so these students also likely went to the "top" undergrad institutions and maybe a private high school before that. At the end of it all and stats aside (GPA, MCAT), these factors put the beneficiaries at a considerable advantage over other candidates from less privileged upbringings. It is in some ways a self-selecting process and this isn't just true for medicine. If you look at law schools (U of T, Osgoode, etc.) or the top undergraduate business schools (Ivey, Queen's, etc.), you will find a similar type of crowd.

    Really? Have you never considered how much harder it is to have to support yourself through university, *magically* obtain the thousands of dollars needed to write the MCAT/apply/travel to interviews? Above and beyond what student loans offer? And then when you work more....your loan gets decreased....so again, where does the money come from??



    It comes from people's parents.



    I agree with the rest of what you said, but you can't deny that it effects admissions. Rich kids likely have parents in jobs like science, or heathcare, and they get their kids summer positions they would otherwise never be qualified for. I've seen this happen countless times. Working part-time will never, ever, look as good as 'selflessly' volunteering. I was shocked when I was getting help with applications at my school's career center and they told me I had tons of work experience compared to most people-that most have worked maybe 1 summer full-time, and nothing else.



    I've noticed that the vast majority of people applying are wealthy. Same with at interviews.



    Hopefully this will work to my favor in those bursary applications....

    ---------------------------------------

    And - it's the SAME in law. These people didn't just "succeed" out of the gate. They were "groomed" from Day #1 with all the contacts, wealth, and backing in the world.

    It's all about wealth, power, and exclusivity. That's America in a nutshell. Not the Horatio Alger crap we've been spoon-fed and programmed with all our lives.

    Not every little boy can grow up to be President..

    You'd better be a Member of the Club.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. TTTT law schools are a bad bet.
      But your obsession with Canadian statistics regarding the medical profession and then haphazardly applying them to the US is just sloppy reasoning.
      Canada isn't the 51st state-neither is the UK, by the way. And while it may be for lamentable reasons-as in they just can't afford to pay otherwise-every year hundreds of US medical grads join the military or public health service to pay back their loans. It's not fair that they have to do so, but it is evidence that merit plays a role in admissions-as in, after the four year payback, these doctors then are free to fully enter the medical profession-and they do.
      but good luck in Canada, eh?

      Delete
  15. You guys have it wrong:

    Law and medicine are a pay to play system.

    Should you sit by the side line and let money stop you from being the best you can be? I know of "A few Good Men" that did not let the lsat, nor student loan debt stand in their way of joining the profession.

    AAMPLE is a good example of letting individuals pursue their greatness beside the artificial barriers that exist, LSAT, etc.

    The odd thing is no one care about you LSAT, grades, nor school name after 10 years out. All they care about is I have a job with associated task, and either you can do them or you cant.

    For years, Medicine has taken a page from the good old AAMPLE handbook of how to join the "good ol boys club" that was meant to keep you out: Newsflash:

    IF you could not get in to a state side med school, then the Caribbean offers plenty of options.... they even have Alternative admissions program's like AAMPLE for their med schools.

    Don't give up on your dreams. And remember it wasn't so long ago in the USA when a "certain" class of citizens were held back from learning and having equal opportunities.

    It's about time some equality happened. Even at the expense of splitting up the American pie, that's capitalism...

    Do not sit by and let your dreams pass you, tomorrow is not promised, everything in life is a risk. Tomorrow you can walk across the street and get hit by a bus.

    I promise you will outlive your student loans...... and if your smart... you will make the payback a number 1 priority....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There's nothing "equal" about having to pay back $200K in student loans while J. Hollingsworth Cromwell's family pays his way through Harvard. Do you even understand what a rigged system is all about?

      Delete
    2. There is no comparison between medicine and law. None. U.S. medical schools (MD and DO) do not put out five times what the market will bear in terms of residencies.

      It doesn't happen.

      Compare to law where entry into the job market looks like Omaha Beach. There is no comparison between the two "professions" Medicine self-regulates and controls quantity, law does not. Please stop embarrassing yourself with these inapt comparisons. Law is a joke.

      Delete
  16. Make sure you pick the "right school" to begin your International Law career.... HA!

    https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/law-admissions-lowdown/articles/2017-07-03/pick-the-right-law-school-for-international-law-career

    ReplyDelete
  17. AAMPLE troll-are you volunteering to payback the loans?
    and to any prospective applicants-take a look at the ABA job statistics for the AAMPLE schools-they are, in a word, lousy. But AAMPLE troll doesn't want you to know the facts; he wants you to watch old episodes of "The Practice" from an old couch in your parents' basement, just like he does.
    So let's get him to fulfill his promises-by either paying back your loans or getting you a biglaw job so you can do so-so AAMPLE troll, what say you?

    ReplyDelete

 
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